MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 10, 2011 11:44:15 GMT -5
When did you start watching Hoya hoops? I think lichoya covered it with Pat, Zo, Deke and O but for the most part Hoya big men including Edwards, Jahidi and Jerome all could pass the ball...this isn't some recent big man phenomenon...its Big Man U I've been watching Hoya hoops since Zo and during Big John's days the big men at GU were below average passers for big men in general. Here's some information: Passing out of a double team does not make you a good passer, especially when you can't spot a teammate in the best position to score. Alonzo remains my favorite all-time player but he was never a very good passer at GU nor was he very good at it in the NBA. In fact the Hoya bigs during their time in the NBA (Ewing, Deke and Zo) had reputations as being bad passers. When it came to delivering a pass they weren't Bill Walton or Tim Duncan or even a Shaq. But that isn't too much of a surprise considering that aspect of the game wasn't developed by them when they were at Georgetown. And do not look at their total assists at GU and take away much from it. Considering the amount of minutes they played, considering the amount of possessions in Big John's more hectic style and considering the number of times defenses collapsed on them in the paint forcing them to kick the ball out to an open teammate, they were bound to rack up a certain amount of dimes. However they never displayed much when it came to that particular skill. Granted in Zo and Deke's final seasons it could be argued their assist totals were hurt by the collection of horribly-shooting teammates surrounding them, nonetheless the two of them were suspect on that front. I'll admit when initially watching them I had very little understanding of this weakness. I was a novice about hoops in general. But years later when watching many of their Gtown games again on tape, I could see just how ineffective they were at passing. It was not that they weren't willing passers. They just weren't good at it. They couldn't really make the bounce pass. They didn't do a good enough job finding cutters or finding teammates under the basket or delivering a cross-court pass. And in the high post they were even worse at delivering the ball except for the high lob. Say what you will about the flaws of the big men during III's run , but they are all instructed well in terms of the art of making a pass. The stuff III has 7 footers do in his offense is amazing. Pinpoint accuracy is not only required, it is demanded and expected. Before III the only Gtown bigs whom I thought were above average at passing (for big men) were Othella and Sweetney. Maybe RBB. Suggesting Jahidi was good at it is highly questionable because that guy had such horrible hands. Bringing up Jerome's name is a bit of a cheat because he was a guard until a major growth spurt that happened to him after entering college (playing for a junior college team) which transformed him into a frontcourt player.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 10, 2011 12:00:20 GMT -5
Regardless, what Draft Express was trying to say was that the big men during JTIII's coaching time -- he of the offense that requires quality passing by bigs -- have had a number of bigs who could pass. Roy, Jeff, Monroe and now Sims all pass well -- so does Lubick and Vaughn was not bad if not spectacular.
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by kchoya on Dec 14, 2011 15:23:18 GMT -5
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Dec 14, 2011 16:19:06 GMT -5
Guess Henry will not be ignored in scouting reports any more.
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Hoyaholic
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by Hoyaholic on Dec 14, 2011 16:40:21 GMT -5
When did you start watching Hoya hoops? I think lichoya covered it with Pat, Zo, Deke and O but for the most part Hoya big men including Edwards, Jahidi and Jerome all could pass the ball...this isn't some recent big man phenomenon...its Big Man U My response is a few days late, but to answer your question I have been watching the Hoyas for 30 years (for the first 8 I hated them, then I became a Hoya myself). I'll give you Jeff Green - I left him off because I don't really consider him a "big man". FWIW, his 25-ft back-door-sidearm-bounce pass to a back-cutting Bowman in the first half against Duke is one of my favorite moments as a Hoya fan - it was like when Rocky knocked down Apollo Creed in the first round of their first fight. (In the ensuing Duke timeout Billy Packer even says something to the effect that Duke just realized that they were playing a team that expected to beat them, a la when Creed's corner man tells him "he doesn't know it's a show - he thinks its a fight!") Back to the topic. I never saw any special passing skills from Mutombo, Mourning, Jahidi, Roy or any of the others Lic named. MCI mentioned Sweetney, who I loved as a player, but his assists mostly consisted of passing out of triple teams to wide open shooters (who rarely made the shot.) In the last two seasons Henry seemed to have the court vision and ability to make effective passes. The difference this year is that defenses have to respect his ability to make a play on his own, especially from the high post, where he is a threat to either take an open jumpshot or put the ball on the floor and drive. Either way he draws defensive attention and frees up passing lanes. Couldn't be happier for the guy. Keep it up Hank.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 14, 2011 17:06:58 GMT -5
Exactly: He has, thus far, been the best playmaking big man in the country -- a development that not even Thompson could see coming. "I don't want to talk about it too much," he said, "because I don't want to jinx anything." Henry, stop reading articles about yourself.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
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Post by lichoya68 on Dec 14, 2011 20:07:40 GMT -5
nice props and agree with jt3 lets not jinx it GO HOYAS GO HENRYBEMUCHMOREMEANIERSTILLTHISYEAR. YES
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drquigley
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by drquigley on Dec 14, 2011 21:59:04 GMT -5
Folks, I wish I could join the "I Love Henry" bandwagon but I'm still not sold. In order for the JTIII system to work he needs a dominant big man, one who can do more than pass well. He needs one who can play defense and score, not in spurts or in certain games but in the clutch. One who keeps opponents on their defensive toes and who opens up backdoor cuts. Henry's not there yet. He still can't shoot from the top of the key or consistently take it to the hoop or hit a baby hook. In short, he's no Roy Hibbert (forget about Ewing or Zo). The Howard game should have been a wake up call. Henry is still a work in progress and not the center we need.
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KirbyKeger
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by KirbyKeger on Dec 14, 2011 22:26:25 GMT -5
Wow, cut Henry some slack. Nobody is expecting him to be Roy Hibbert. What he has given us this year is way more than any of us could've ever hoped for. I, for one, couldn't be happier for Henry and I am fully on the bandwagon. He's only averaging 12 points 5 rebounds and 4 assists a game after having a really hard time for 3 years. Even more impressive, he's a focal point of our offense. During the Memphis game, we made it a point to get him the ball every possession. To expect any more from Henry than what he's given us so far is greedy. He has been outstanding.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 14, 2011 23:48:01 GMT -5
Folks, I wish I could join the "I Love Henry" bandwagon but I'm still not sold. In order for the JTIII system to work he needs a dominant big man, one who can do more than pass well. He needs one who can play defense and score, not in spurts or in certain games but in the clutch. One who keeps opponents on their defensive toes and who opens up backdoor cuts. Henry's not there yet. He still can't shoot from the top of the key or consistently take it to the hoop or hit a baby hook. In short, he's no Roy Hibbert (forget about Ewing or Zo). The Howard game should have been a wake up call. I guess Jeff Green's horrible performance against Old Dominion during his junior season should have been a splash of cold water in the face as well. Or how about when Roy struggled against no-name centers who stood 6'7? I'm not putting Henry in their class but I am pointing out the stupidity of judging him by that Howard game. If we are to go by what took place on the court this past Saturday then the WHOLE Gtown squad could be written off as bums. However common sense should tell us the Hoyas are individually and as a unit better than how they looked this weekend. Certainly guys like Hollis and Jason have had better games against teams far superior to the Bison. Henry has also had better games this season against better teams, both times away from home. And in both the Memphis and Alabama game there were stretches in which the Hoyas went to Henry successively when baskets were much needed. Did you forget that quickly? Did you forget that Henry has show this season that he can indeed do more than "pass well"? Good grief. There will be plenty of time, plenty of games ahead, to determine if Henry is going to be successful against BE teams. Why jump the gun by judging now? Stop panicking. On Saturday the Hoyas had one of those days in which as a collective unit they played awfully. But that doesn't prove anything. He is the center that we have though so you'll have to deal with it.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Dec 15, 2011 0:34:57 GMT -5
Kudos to Henry - he has been playing as an above average Big East center. I think he can keep it up. There will be several games, though, when that 17 foot jumper is a real liability if he falls in love with it.
It's good to take once in a while to keep defenses honest, but I'm not convinced that shot is going down more than 30% of the time, especially on the road in hostile environments. Would love to see him take it once and then use shot fake and athleticism to create better shots.
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Post by bluesky on Dec 15, 2011 4:06:57 GMT -5
"He can't shoot from the top of the key" ?? Have you been watching the games. He has hit several clutch shots from thre in recent games, so that's just wrong...
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Post by bigelephant on Dec 15, 2011 5:39:45 GMT -5
"He can't shoot from the top of the key" ?? Have you been watching the games. He has hit several clutch shots from thre in recent games, so that's just wrong... I think Ranch is more right. Need to get in to BE season to see if it is for real. Fingers crossed that it is but I would not bet the farm yet. But Good Going, Henry - keep it up - you CAN do it!
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by tashoya on Dec 15, 2011 8:16:12 GMT -5
Folks, I wish I could join the "I Love Henry" bandwagon but I'm still not sold. In order for the JTIII system to work he needs a dominant big man, one who can do more than pass well. He needs one who can play defense and score, not in spurts or in certain games but in the clutch. One who keeps opponents on their defensive toes and who opens up backdoor cuts. Henry's not there yet. He still can't shoot from the top of the key or consistently take it to the hoop or hit a baby hook. In short, he's no Roy Hibbert (forget about Ewing or Zo). The Howard game should have been a wake up call. Henry is still a work in progress and not the center we need. I'm on the I love Henry bandwagon because of how much work he's put in and how much he's improved. Period. That said, remind me which of Greg or Roy could shoot from the top of the key? Oh, that's right. Neither of them. Greg wasn't a defensive beast. And his midrange game wasn't as good as Henry's is right now. Henry isn't on the level of Greg or Roy yet but are you saying that Roy or Greg could take their man off the dribble consistently? In terms of how far Henry has come, I agree that we have to wait and see against some Big East teams but at least give the kid his due for what we've already seen.
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hoyainspirit
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Post by hoyainspirit on Dec 15, 2011 9:24:10 GMT -5
Henry isn't on the level of Greg or Roy yet but are you saying that Roy or Greg could take their man off the dribble consistently? Greg could. And I'm loving me some Henry.
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 15, 2011 9:32:23 GMT -5
That said, remind me which of Greg or Roy could shoot from the top of the key? Oh, that's right. Neither of them. I hate to point this out tashoya, but now you're sounding just like Jim Calhoun.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Dec 15, 2011 11:14:24 GMT -5
That said, remind me which of Greg or Roy could shoot from the top of the key? Oh, that's right. Neither of them. I hate to point this out tashoya, but now you're sounding just like Jim Calhoun. I just threw up in my mouth a little. Anyone see my laptop?
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Post by HeartAttackHoya on Dec 15, 2011 11:17:22 GMT -5
A Henry inspired T shirt is a must on this year's to do list
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chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by chep3 on Dec 15, 2011 11:28:34 GMT -5
Greg absolutely could take his man off the dribble. He did it all the time.
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Post by michaelgrahamfan on Dec 15, 2011 12:19:55 GMT -5
All I can think of is the lost season when we had Sims and Monroe. I am a half full kind of guy....
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