kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 23, 2012 13:17:21 GMT -5
I wish people would do their homework instead of flying off radar about this situation. No one is "flying off radar" on this. There's plenty of information out there for people to use in forming their opinions. Simply because you disagree with the position someone takes does not mean your opinion is more informed. That's a very elitist attitude. 1. Paterno reported this up through the AD and through public safety. University Park is an unincorporated town and PSU public safety is "the law" on campus. Where is the similar national outrage that the AD didn't move this forward? Don't know what you've been reading, but there's certainly national outrage against the failings of all involved. 2. Paterno was not buddies with Sandusky. He told Sandusky in 1999, three years earlier, that he was not stepping aside as head coach, and, in other words, to get lost. He maintained no relationship with Sandusky. Sandusky was not an employee of Paterno's at the time of this incident, yet maintained relationships with current members of the PSU trustees, the very same trustees that had been trying to get rid of Paterno for years and seized the moment instead of accepting his offer to retire. A "buddy" lets a molester hang around the program, use the facilities, be present in a suite at the stadium, etc. You really believe that Sandusky leaving in 1999 related solely to JoePa sticking around and not to the molesting problems back then? 3. Paterno told Sally Jenkins he didn't fully understand what the GA was telling him about Sandusky and that may well have played a role in him merely referring it elsewhere. While we may live in a world where such atrocities are more well known, for someone who was 75 and living much the same sheltered life he led when he moved to State College in 1950, it didn't hit home for him. The villain here is Sandusky, not Paterno. It is sometimes important to remember that. That's excuse making of the highest degree. The guy was in charge of a million-dollar machine. Don't paint him as some simplistic Mayberry-type character. Simply because he's lived in the same house since 1970 and wears the same glasses he had in 1962, there is no excuse for what he failed to do. Yes, Joe Paterno is a villian because he failed to act. Is Sandusky the bigger villian? Probably. But anyone with an IQ over 90 knows that it is simply wrong for a grown man to be showering naked with an unrelated young boy in a college locker room. No other details need be known for JoePa to "fully understand what the GA was telling him." |
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 23, 2012 13:27:18 GMT -5
No one is "flying off radar" on this. There's plenty of information out there for people to use in forming their opinions. Simply because you disagree with the position someone takes does not mean your opinion is more informed. That's a very elitist attitude. The projection of Sandusky's sins onto Paterno are misplaced. That's an opinion, nothing more. If you consider that elite, you're misusing the word. |
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GUJook97
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Post by GUJook97 on Jan 23, 2012 13:33:29 GMT -5
I dont think people are projecting Sandusky's sins on to Paterno. They are saying that Paterno's wrongs were atrocious. Perhaps not equally so, but atrocious nonetheless.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 23, 2012 13:44:12 GMT -5
No one is "flying off radar" on this. There's plenty of information out there for people to use in forming their opinions. Simply because you disagree with the position someone takes does not mean your opinion is more informed. That's a very elitist attitude. The projection of Sandusky's sins onto Paterno are misplaced. That's an opinion, nothing more. If you consider that elite, you're misusing the word. GUJook97 has it right - no one is projecting. The sins are related, but separate. You wrote, "I wish people would do their homework instead of flying off radar about this situation." That implies that those who take a different position than you do are uninformed. That's simply not true. To contend that your position is superior because it is allegedly better-informed is elitist (there's probably a better adjective that applies). |
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jan 23, 2012 14:45:24 GMT -5
The big issue I have is the dualistic nature of Paterno. Everyone alleged that he had massive power - he was apparently smart enough to, a few years ago, quash an attempt to push him out. Paterno ran the football program, often for good rather than ill. Penn State fans talk about this religiously - Paterno used this ability to become bigger than the program, to make Penn State stand for something.
But, as soon as scandal arises, Paterno is doddering and weak and his mind is clouded. Apparently, someone Machiavellian enough to keep his job after a 4-7 season and with everyone questioning his competence wasn't able to do more than the bare minimum after a decade.
And that's the second thing - Penn State has always been about more than the bare minimum, about making football players who weren't just lunkheads and assistant coaches who were cheaters. The defense of Paterno that he did what was legally required seems to sell his program short - there was never an effort to do only what was required. That seems especially depressing given that Paterno would have seen that, post-reporting, law enforcement hadn't gotten involved. And Paterno could have done anything. He could have expelled Sandusky, not allowing him to trade on the Penn State name. But he didn't, despite having eyewitness testimony from one of his employees.
That's why the villain is, to a degree, Paterno. If it had been Georgia, and Mark Richt didn't do anything, I wouldn't have had the visceral dislike that I did - I'd almost expect Lane Kiffin to hold some "I know nothink!" schtick had it happened at USC. Paterno had always sold his program as being better. If it's better, it needs to be judged appropriately.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 23, 2012 14:45:53 GMT -5
Again--when a guy acts like a dictator and "king" over a program and all is well--Long Live the King. You get the, "He's got his hands all over the program and nothing goes on without him knowing-a true leader and great man" and then something AWFUL happens and these guys turn into know nothing, huckleberries who can't comprehend anything aside from whatever sport they coach? F that.
Paterno knew what happened and to ignore the timing of his "ignorance" which so happens to tie in with his march to be the all time D1 wins leader as a coach is being naive to how egomaniacal all coaches/people are when records are at stake.
Fact Sandusky was allowed to be around program/use faclities, etc...and act as if Paterno saying "Get this piece of garbage out of here" wouldn't have been listened too is being ignorant.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on Jan 23, 2012 16:31:49 GMT -5
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Jan 23, 2012 17:29:04 GMT -5
he is also running for the BOT
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Jan 23, 2012 19:07:36 GMT -5
I guess I'm repeating myself (who doesn't on this board - ;D), but I view Paterno's death as the final scene of a Shakespearean tragedy. This man did lots of good in his life - I don't see how anyone can question that - but he also made an enormous, tragic, unforgivable error in his handling of the Sandusky matter. I remember thinking it was odd that Bear Bryant died so soon after retiring, but in this case, I feel Paterno lost the will to go on, and I'm not surprised by his passing at all.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jan 23, 2012 19:19:53 GMT -5
espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/44247/paying-tribute-to-joe-paterno"Charles Gable and Claire Smith arrived. Gable, who has two degrees from Penn State and works on campus, said, “The alumni are honoring him in a way that the board [of trustees] wouldn’t even know how to.” He had a story to tell about Paterno. “In 2005, the year he turned the team around after the losing seasons,” Gable said, “I ran for State College borough council. I knocked on his door and asked for his vote. He offered me five minutes to hear my pitch. He always took the time -- one, two, five minutes -- to talk to people. I’ll never forget that. He asked me what I wanted to do for the borough.” " 2005, of course, was three years after McQueary had told Paterno.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 23, 2012 19:51:00 GMT -5
Again--when a guy acts like a dictator and "king" over a program and all is well--Long Live the King. You get the, "He's got his hands all over the program and nothing goes on without him knowing-a true leader and great man" and then something AWFUL happens and these guys turn into know nothing, huckleberries who can't comprehend anything aside from whatever sport they coach? F that. That same line of argument was lobbed at John Thompson for a greater part of a decade. Pitt coach Paul Evans famously said that "[Thompson] is more powerful than the athletic director, more powerful than Georgetown's president." There is a difference between authority and power. John Thompson had great authority over the basketball program, but the power was still up the hill. He was always very smart about that. Paterno had authority too, no one doubted that, but much of his power was imputed. No one wanted to be the president that got rid of him, and he knew that and could play off that to his advantage. The Penn State BOT had been held up for years by the president's office's failure to address Paterno's future and by firing Spanier they took the opportunity to do what they were unable to get someone to do before, and did so by firing him without so much as an adminsitrative hearing--remember, Paterno was a tenured faculty member. Do that to an English professor and he'd sue the school for everything he could. Meanwhile, Bernie Fine is alleged to have taken boys on Syracuse road trips and to hotel rooms at the Big East tournament, and his wife all but implicates him on an audio tape held in a drawer in Bristol for six years. But his boss of 35 years simply said he had no knowledge it happened and the story has dropped off the news cycle. |
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Jan 23, 2012 20:26:42 GMT -5
Remember that Paterno told the BOT that they didn't have to worry about him - the height of arrogance.
Paterno also said "The kids that were victims or whatever they want to say, I think we all ought to say a prayer for them.", which isn't as bad as Boeheim, but casts doubt on the accusations.
This isn't about Thompson or about Syracuse. It's about Paterno.
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Jan 23, 2012 21:37:37 GMT -5
You all are a bunch of morons. Do you think that the lung cancer can spread throughout Joe's body in six weeks to kill him? He just wanted to go out on his terms. The BOT didn't alllow that, right, wrong or otherwise. All his millions couldn't stop him dying, but a bunch of sheep could stop him from doing it his way.
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guru
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Post by guru on Jan 23, 2012 21:42:31 GMT -5
You all are a bunch of morons. Do you think that the lung cancer can spread throughout Joe's body in six weeks to kill him? He just wanted to go out on his terms. The BOT didn't alllow that, right, wrong or otherwise. All his millions couldn't stop him dying, but a bunch of sheep could stop him from doing it his way. I think some of the "morons" you address believe that this man forfeited his right to go out on his terms when he failed to do more than the bare minimum to stop a serial child molester. |
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Jan 23, 2012 21:52:18 GMT -5
The last ten years have been about Joe than others. He probably didn't think it was important to do more than the min.
You need to know the man before you assume things. You all weren''t there, neither was ESPN
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 23, 2012 22:04:09 GMT -5
He probably didn't think it was important to do more than the min. Good god, do you even realize what you're typing? |
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Jan 23, 2012 22:10:16 GMT -5
Again--when a guy acts like a dictator and "king" over a program and all is well--Long Live the King. You get the, "He's got his hands all over the program and nothing goes on without him knowing-a true leader and great man" and then something AWFUL happens and these guys turn into know nothing, huckleberries who can't comprehend anything aside from whatever sport they coach? F that. That same line of argument was lobbed at John Thompson for a greater part of a decade. Pitt coach Paul Evans famously said that "[Thompson] is more powerful than the athletic director, more powerful than Georgetown's president." There is a difference between authority and power. John Thompson had great authority over the basketball program, but the power was still up the hill. He was always very smart about that. Paterno had authority too, no one doubted that, but much of his power was imputed. No one wanted to be the president that got rid of him, and he knew that and could play off that to his advantage. The Penn State BOT had been held up for years by the president's office's failure to address Paterno's future and by firing Spanier they took the opportunity to do what they were unable to get someone to do before, and did so by firing him without so much as an adminsitrative hearing--remember, Paterno was a tenured faculty member. Do that to an English professor and he'd sue the school for everything he could. Meanwhile, Bernie Fine is alleged to have taken boys on Syracuse road trips and to hotel rooms at the Big East tournament, and his wife all but implicates him on an audio tape held in a drawer in Bristol for six years. But his boss of 35 years simply said he had no knowledge it happened and the story has dropped off the news cycle. I missed the part where sycophants are claiming JT2 is a doddering old man stuck in Happy Valley version of Lake Wobegon where all the children are above average and none of the men showering with young boys are molesters. Are you really saying that Paterno was so impotent? |
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jan 23, 2012 23:34:08 GMT -5
Jesus deleted ***** DFW--what damn planet do you live on? John Thompson was EXACTLY like Paterno--down to fact he'd even make sure press released rumors of his "interest" in leaving when it benefitted him--nevermind the fact his failures had more to do with him not recruiting elite talent and being lazy and not that his coaching got lesser. You see it yearly with coaches who show their ego.
That being said--if John Thompson had an assistant coach do what Jerry Sandusky did, and acted in same manner as Joe Paterno--he would be given more hate from media due to his race then the deserved disapproval of how the situation was handled. If he ever conducted an interview and referred to fact he'd never heard of men raping boys--that's warrant to put him away for his own safety. If Paterno truly didn't hear of that--what kind of clown did PSU allow to operate their FB program? GTFO with that nonsense.
Paterno overstayed his welcome for personal glory and records. His behavior at the end of his time as PSU coach was self centered and disgusting. How he handled things was disgusting. How he claiimed to not know anything was blatantly lying. He knew. The fact is he didn't act and follow up. Are we to believe he never saw or heard of Jerry Sandusky still having access to the school--with an office, keys to athletic facilities, locker room, etc....?
How this turned into a referral to Thompson, I don't know?? Boeheim should be fired too. I think that is just as disgusting-but I dont' control the media, so your point is what? Think it's beyond sickening how people want to defend someone because of their past/success in an industry. If I'm Citizen of the Year for 3 decades and won a Purple Heart, that doesn't mean I'm not a failure if I knew of a co-worker who violated a child, covered it up, kept it quiet, didn't exhaust all opportunities to make certain the truth came out-to defend my co-worker if he's innocent or to get him put away if he's guilty, and most of all--I wouldn't focus on my placement in my field of work or what happens to me when I do know of the accusations that are being discussed and what came out. But hey--that's just me.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jan 23, 2012 23:56:03 GMT -5
Meanwhile, Paterno's death means his testimony in the perjury trials of two Penn State officials is now inadmissible. Writes the NY Times: "Paterno’s grand jury testimony is inadmissible, according to several lawyers, because he was not cross-examined in that proceeding. The Sixth Amendment’s confrontation clause guarantees criminal defendants the right to confront the witnesses against them. In this case, the lawyers for Curley and Schultz can no longer challenge Paterno’s credibility." www.nytimes.com/2012/01/24/sports/ncaafootball/paternos-death-costs-state-a-key-witness.html |
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Post by miracles87 on Jan 24, 2012 10:30:58 GMT -5
I am thrilled to see the droogs of the Hoya Saxa board are still hard at work protecting our nation's children. Heroes of the internet, each and every one, fighting for the kids, one asinine rant at a time. Keep up the good work!
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