vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Nov 8, 2011 14:27:56 GMT -5
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Nov 8, 2011 15:47:44 GMT -5
Obviously, virtually everyone of us is thoroughly disgusted with this. And not surprisingly, I haven't heard anyone running to Joe Pa's defense. The closest that I've heard are a couple of shallow "innocent until proven guilty" comments.
But for all the unison I see in response to this, I haven't seen much in the way of shock. Is it just me? Am I naive somehow? If the grand jury findings are accurate -- not trying to jump the gun here, but if they are remotely accurate -- isn't it shocking that something so horrific could happen? I'm not talking about the incidents themselves. There are absolute derelicts all over. But I'm talking about what amounts to a pretty sizable coverup of something so blatantly horrific and in particular, coming under the "watch" of someone whom I had complete respect for prior to this.
Listen, I despise FSU than anyone else possibly can, and have utter disdain for Bobby Bowden. But I would have been shocked to hear these exact same details coming from Tallahassee under his tenure. I never bought into St Bobby's angelic likeness, and in fact know that much of his image was entirely fabricated. But even still, not only would I not want this of him and the FSU program, I would in fact be shocked at these types of revelations. Am I just too distanced from the Penn St. program? Is there any reason at all to even "understand" that such things could have happened, and NOT come away completely shocked?
I honestly, just don't get it.
Someone mentioned seeing a neighbor do this, and I think he made a great point. Regardless of how "close" you are to someone, if you stumbled onto something like this, I can't imagine doing anything but keeping all kids away from this pervert -- even if it was a close "friend."
I am honestly baffled on this one.
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Nov 8, 2011 16:06:04 GMT -5
hifi, I'm pretty sure that a lot of people have been experiencing "shock" as a result of these allegations. I am one of them, and I'm pretty far removed from Penn State - just a sports fan who also knows a lot of people that went to school there during my time in DC.
On other note, say what you will about his gross mismanagement of the Detroit Lions during his time there, Penn State grad Matt Millen's statements on ESPN today have been pretty spot on, in my opinion.
And yes, I started reading the 23-page report online, and found it difficult to read and digest. I tapped out after getting to the end of "Victim 1."
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Nov 8, 2011 16:15:13 GMT -5
Do I have to be the one to say it; I would not have called the cops either. Second hand information on a friend of mine for 30 years? Sorry, I wouldn't have. I would have let someone else investigate.
Every blogger and newspaper writer in America would have immediately called the police. Makes sense. I mean what's 30 years of friendship when you have what a grad assistant thought he saw in a locker room last night? Easy choice. Because if I'm wrong I only ruin a man and destroy a freindship. No worries.
And if they investigated and exonerated him? I would have kept pushing implying I think he's a pedophile and there's no way to tell me differently. No, no I wouldn't have.
I would have acted the same way as everyone in that brief, had lived with doubts and hopes it weren't true about my friend, and then probably want to throw myself off a bridge for a bit after I heard the worst was actually fact.
It doesn't mean everyone shouldn't resign, but other than Curley who comes across as a bureaucrat trying to avoid a hard choice, I don't know how much self righteousness I feel here.
My sister is a smart, kind person. And I watched her defend her professional mentor and friend when he was charged with similar crimes. She believed him because she knew him. And she believed him until the day before charges were to be formally filed...and he locked a garage and started the car.
It's not so easy.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Nov 8, 2011 16:19:32 GMT -5
Do I have to be the one to say it; I would not have called the cops either. Second hand information on a friend of mine for 30 years? Sorry, I wouldn't have. I would have let someone else investigate. Every blogger and newspaper writer in America would have immediately called the police. Makes sense. I mean what's 30 years of friendship when you have what a grad assistant thought he saw in a locker room last night? Easy choice. Because if I'm wrong I only ruin a man and destroy a freindship. No worries. And if they investigated and exonerated him? I would have kept pushing implying I think he's a pedophile and there's no way to tell me differently. No, no I wouldn't have. I would have acted the same way as everyone in that brief, had lived with doubts and hopes it weren't true about my friend, and then probably want to throw myself off a bridge for a bit after I heard the worst was actually fact. It doesn't mean everyone shouldn't resign, but other than Curley who comes across as a bureaucrat trying to avoid a hard choice, I don't know how much self righteousness I feel here. My sister is a smart, kind person. And I watched her defend her professional mentor and friend when he was charged with similar crimes. She believed him because she knew him. And she believed him until the day before charges were to be formally filed...and he locked a garage and started the car. It's not so easy. You are being more honest than most of the writers and bloggers out there but there should be a difference between "hearing terrible rumors about a friend" and "hearing terrible rumors that your friend is doing terrible things on your property." And, regardless, the grad student should have at the very least went to the cops if not confronted and subdued the monster on the spot.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 8, 2011 16:50:26 GMT -5
Do I have to be the one to say it; I would not have called the cops either. Second hand information on a friend of mine for 30 years? Sorry, I wouldn't have. I would have let someone else investigate. What if you were Mike McQueary or the janitor?
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Nov 8, 2011 16:54:28 GMT -5
Do I have to be the one to say it; I would not have called the cops either. Second hand information on a friend of mine for 30 years? Sorry, I wouldn't have. I would have let someone else investigate. Every blogger and newspaper writer in America would have immediately called the police. Makes sense. I mean what's 30 years of friendship when you have what a grad assistant thought he saw in a locker room last night? Easy choice. Because if I'm wrong I only ruin a man and destroy a freindship. No worries. And if they investigated and exonerated him? I would have kept pushing implying I think he's a pedophile and there's no way to tell me differently. No, no I wouldn't have. I would have acted the same way as everyone in that brief, had lived with doubts and hopes it weren't true about my friend, and then probably want to throw myself off a bridge for a bit after I heard the worst was actually fact. It doesn't mean everyone shouldn't resign, but other than Curley who comes across as a bureaucrat trying to avoid a hard choice, I don't know how much self righteousness I feel here. My sister is a smart, kind person. And I watched her defend her professional mentor and friend when he was charged with similar crimes. She believed him because she knew him. And she believed him until the day before charges were to be formally filed...and he locked a garage and started the car. It's not so easy. If you've heard allegations about your brother Uncle Carl, sure, you might not go to the police. But, if, a week later, you hear that Uncle Carl is having a party for some middle schoolers, you don't let him use your house, especially if everyone at the middle school thinks that you're great parents. That's what gets me. By letting him continue to associate himself with Penn State, without cutting ties, is the horrific thing. You can cut ties for a variety of reasons without raising any suspicion. They couldn't even do that.
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guru
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Post by guru on Nov 8, 2011 17:20:01 GMT -5
Do I have to be the one to say it; I would not have called the cops either. Second hand information on a friend of mine for 30 years? Sorry, I wouldn't have. I would have let someone else investigate. Every blogger and newspaper writer in America would have immediately called the police. Makes sense. I mean what's 30 years of friendship when you have what a grad assistant thought he saw in a locker room last night? Easy choice. Because if I'm wrong I only ruin a man and destroy a freindship. No worries. And if they investigated and exonerated him? I would have kept pushing implying I think he's a pedophile and there's no way to tell me differently. No, no I wouldn't have. I would have acted the same way as everyone in that brief, had lived with doubts and hopes it weren't true about my friend, and then probably want to throw myself off a bridge for a bit after I heard the worst was actually fact. It doesn't mean everyone shouldn't resign, but other than Curley who comes across as a bureaucrat trying to avoid a hard choice, I don't know how much self righteousness I feel here. My sister is a smart, kind person. And I watched her defend her professional mentor and friend when he was charged with similar crimes. She believed him because she knew him. And she believed him until the day before charges were to be formally filed...and he locked a garage and started the car. It's not so easy. If you've heard allegations about your brother Uncle Carl, sure, you might not go to the police. But, if, a week later, you hear that Uncle Carl is having a party for some middle schoolers, you don't let him use your house, especially if everyone at the middle school thinks that you're great parents. That's what gets me. By letting him continue to associate himself with Penn State, without cutting ties, is the horrific thing. You can cut ties for a variety of reasons without raising any suspicion. They couldn't even do that. Of course, if your Uncle Carl is also your brother, the above scenario might not seem so problematic.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Nov 8, 2011 19:38:11 GMT -5
Do I have to be the one to say it; I would not have called the cops either. Second hand information on a friend of mine for 30 years? Sorry, I wouldn't have. I would have let someone else investigate. Every blogger and newspaper writer in America would have immediately called the police. Makes sense. I mean what's 30 years of friendship when you have what a grad assistant thought he saw in a locker room last night? Easy choice. Because if I'm wrong I only ruin a man and destroy a freindship. No worries. And if they investigated and exonerated him? I would have kept pushing implying I think he's a pedophile and there's no way to tell me differently. No, no I wouldn't have. I would have acted the same way as everyone in that brief, had lived with doubts and hopes it weren't true about my friend, and then probably want to throw myself off a bridge for a bit after I heard the worst was actually fact. It doesn't mean everyone shouldn't resign, but other than Curley who comes across as a bureaucrat trying to avoid a hard choice, I don't know how much self righteousness I feel here. My sister is a smart, kind person. And I watched her defend her professional mentor and friend when he was charged with similar crimes. She believed him because she knew him. And she believed him until the day before charges were to be formally filed...and he locked a garage and started the car. It's not so easy. Giga... you are someone I consider a friend -- as you well know. And, I always respect your opinion. I appreciate your relating the story about your sister and I understand how she felt. But her situation was very different. I am in no way criticizing how your sister handled that situation. A few things. If I were the Graduate assistant, I know from how I have reacted to things over the years I would have confronted that coach immediately and intervened on behalf of that kid. No, I have never experienced anything remotely like that scenario. But in other instances of clear wrong-doing, I have intervened -- without thinking about consequences. So Yes, I think Mike M should have done something then and there when he saw the coach and the kid in the shower. Second, I would have called the cops. Third, I would have pursued and ensured that Paterno called the cops. OK... those things didn't happen. And what I would have done is irrelevant. Your sister's story is understandable, but quite different from Paterno's. He RAN the football program for like... forever. He was the responsible adult in the room. It was HIS program. This isn't just a friend and colleague, this is a UNIVERSITY for whom he held an obligation. AND, there was a kid involved. What about him? One of the most astonishing aspects of this entire ordeal is that NO ONE... NO ONE.. pursued the kid, tried to find out who he was, HOW he was, get him to a counselor... no one showed one iota of concern about that innocent kid. Paterno's responsibility in this entire ordeal far exceeded your sister's in her situation. and.. there was a previous investigation, several years earlier, by the Penn State U police folks. I find it almost impossible to believe that someone as powerful as Paterno would not have heard about that earlier instance...and the other one that also came to light at that time... concerning my then Defensive Coordinator. OK, give Paterno 100% of the benefit of the doubt on that one.. it had to be in his mind at least. On his radar screen. Then, a few years later, my Grad Asst., former QB comes to my house and tells me this story.... I HAVE to give it the utmost attention and credibility. How can you drop the ball after that? So, GIGA, while I understand your POV, and I understand how your sister reacted, I think there is a gigantic difference in the circumstances and the roles of your sister and Joe Pa. It is hard to believe he so utterly failed in his responsibility to that innocent kid (and others), to his FB program and to the University. I don't see him getting a free pass on this one. The enormity of the offense and of the continuing consequences on innocent kids??? Far too great to let him off the hook. Joe Pa shares the responsibility for letting this go on... just like the Bishops who enabled their wayward Priests to continue to prey upon innocent, unsuspecting kids. Your sister was supporting a friend in whom she (mistakenly) believed. But Joe Pa was responsible for that coach -- even if he was "retired" at the time, for the facilities, for things that took place in his realm. Other people share that responsibility. But Joe Pa does not get off the hook because he passed on a watered down version of the actual events. Really... think of yourself. Could you live with yourself if, in Joe Pa's shoes, you had failed to at least look into this, look into the kid, talked to that coach, tried to find out the truth? Sorry.. for me... that is indefensible.
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Nov 9, 2011 8:38:34 GMT -5
I agree with you and TC on Mcquearey and the janitor. They saw a crime. They should call the police. And actually their non-reporting to the police burdens everyone else in the chain. Now someone who didn't see anything has to report this. That's not easy. That the only witness didn't report the crime to the police already casts doubt of how sure he is what he saw.
And I don't think Paterno deserves a free pass here but certainly he isn't getting one. Can he live with himself? Probably not but I already said, that's how I would feel. It doesn't mean if I went back in time, I'd assume the worst of a friend of mine. I wouldn't. And this is the worst thing to think about someone.
But I also agree with whomever compared this to the Catholic Church and said it was not analogous. The Catholic Church had a systemic issue that was covered up over a long period of time with multiple perpetrators. That's not this. This is what happens in schools all the time when someone catches a math teacher with a young kid. They don't know what to do, who to report it to, and often after their done, even witnesses are not sure what they saw at all. That's how predators operate. They assume people won't believe it if they're such a "nice guy" and that's why it can go on so long.
Everyone doing this gets caught one way; a kid comes forward. Then the community asks "How could anyone not know?" and heads roll. That is what is happening here. It's just on a bigger stage. It is always horrible, way too common, and avoidable in hindsight but difficult when you have to actually paint the red letter "M" on someone in the moment.
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tashoya
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Post by tashoya on Nov 9, 2011 8:50:44 GMT -5
Except if someone walks in on an incident in the shower. How do you not immediately beat that guy senseless then call the police?
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rosslynhoya
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Post by rosslynhoya on Nov 9, 2011 8:54:15 GMT -5
I agree with you and TC on Mcquearey and the janitor. They saw a crime. They should call the police. And actually their non-reporting to the police burdens everyone else in the chain. Now someone who didn't see anything has to report this. That's not easy. That the only witness didn't report the crime to the police already casts doubt of how sure he is what he saw. What do you honestly suppose happens to the janitor or graduate assistant who reports this to the local/university police? Who are you going to believe, some peon or one of the guys who put your school on the map, took you to two national titles, and who has done so much for so many underprivileged children over the years? Wait, the municipal and campus police INVESTIGATED Sandusky in 1999. They concluded that he should probably stop showering with pre-teen boys. Sandusky promised he would stop showering with pre-teen boys. He acknowledged that he had "probably" touched the genitalia of at least one boy. Three years later, similar allegations emerge and no one in the administration remembers that he's already been previously investigated for this. And then it kept going on for another SIX years.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 9, 2011 9:50:58 GMT -5
Wait, the municipal and campus police INVESTIGATED Sandusky in 1999. They concluded that he should probably stop showering with pre-teen boys. Sandusky promised he would stop showering with pre-teen boys. He acknowledged that he had "probably" touched the genitalia of at least one boy. Three years later, similar allegations emerge and no one in the administration remembers that he's already been previously investigated for this. And then it kept going on for another SIX years. I'm sorry, but this is institutionally more than just analagous to what happened in the Archdiocese of Boston. It's pretty much the exact same thing.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 9, 2011 10:00:58 GMT -5
What do you honestly suppose happens to the janitor or graduate assistant who reports this to the local/university police? Who are you going to believe, some peon or one of the guys who put your school on the map, took you to two national titles, and who has done so much for so many underprivileged children over the years? I'm not sure about the janitor, but who are you going to believe - a paid graduate assistant who was your former QB - not a third string corner or a placekicker - but your former starting quarterback, or a retired volunteer coach who has already been charged with the same sort of stuff? Mike McQueary was not a peon. The fact that McQueary didn't stop it is mindboggling to me. The other point that I'd make is that Giga's sister wasn't the person in the position of authority. Paterno was. The AD was. The VP was. In that situation the dynamic changes from supporting a friend to having responsibility to oversee what is going on. GIGA's sister did what she should have. These people didn't - and the more victims that come forward - especially past 1998 and 2002 - the more it is clear that they are culpable in this.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Nov 9, 2011 10:02:28 GMT -5
I agree with you and TC on Mcquearey and the janitor. They saw a crime. They should call the police. And actually their non-reporting to the police burdens everyone else in the chain. Now someone who didn't see anything has to report this. That's not easy. That the only witness didn't report the crime to the police already casts doubt of how sure he is what he saw. What do you honestly suppose happens to the janitor or graduate assistant who reports this to the local/university police? Who are you going to believe, some peon or one of the guys who put your school on the map, took you to two national titles, and who has done so much for so many underprivileged children over the years? So what? That's a complete cop out. It's not like were talking about walking in on someone littering. They saw a grown man raping a 10-year- old. There's no rationalizing a failure to report and follow up on that.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Nov 9, 2011 10:47:15 GMT -5
Sally Jenkins weighs in.EXCERPT:Try to forgive Joe Paterno: When he looked at Jerry Sandusky, he didn’t see a dirty old man in a raincoat. He saw a friend, a close colleague, and a churchy do-gooder. He saw a nice guy. You’d have seen the same thing. Think not? You think you can see a clear-cut difference between an alleged child molester and a youth coach? How exactly? By the hunchback and the M-shaped scar on his forehead that says, “I’m a molester”?
It’s sorely tempting to assign Paterno chief blame in the Penn State case, to say that he should have seen Sandusky for what he allegedly was. Unfortunately, the truth is, youth coaches from California to Rhode Island have molested children at every level, sandlot to USA Swimming, and we hardly ever recognize the pervert. We usually shake his hand.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Nov 9, 2011 10:55:17 GMT -5
Sally Jenkins weighs in.EXCERPT:Try to forgive Joe Paterno: When he looked at Jerry Sandusky, he didn’t see a dirty old man in a raincoat. He saw a friend, a close colleague, and a churchy do-gooder. He saw a nice guy. You’d have seen the same thing. Think not? You think you can see a clear-cut difference between an alleged child molester and a youth coach? How exactly? By the hunchback and the M-shaped scar on his forehead that says, “I’m a molester”?
It’s sorely tempting to assign Paterno chief blame in the Penn State case, to say that he should have seen Sandusky for what he allegedly was. Unfortunately, the truth is, youth coaches from California to Rhode Island have molested children at every level, sandlot to USA Swimming, and we hardly ever recognize the pervert. We usually shake his hand. Except that in 1998, he copped to showering with preteen boys and was told to knock it off. In 2002, a staff member ("McQueary") walked in on him sodomizing a 10 year old boy. How McQueary was able to leave without intervening is a matter for a much higher authority. Regardless of the shame of McQueary's inaction or cowardice, Paterno, et al let Sandusky hang around for another 7 or 8 years, escorting young boys to practices on campus while conducting football camps with young boys. Ray Charles could have seen Sandusky for what he was. If not after 1998, then certainly after 2002.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 9, 2011 10:57:28 GMT -5
It’s sorely tempting to assign Paterno chief blame in the Penn State case I don't think anyone anywhere has assigned Paterno chief blame. There's a lot to go around though.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 9, 2011 11:04:51 GMT -5
Some FOX affiliate reporting nine more victims stepping forward bringing it to a total of 17 so far.
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Nov 9, 2011 11:16:00 GMT -5
Jor announced his retirement effective the end of the season. That will really limit what the Board of Trustees can do, now. Joe can talk before 4 or 5 more games this season, which they will not want him to do.
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