hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Oct 17, 2011 20:06:15 GMT -5
If you are aware of the sad story of Dean Smith's health, you might think that Bronxitos really is Dean Smith (in case you don't know, Dean Smith is suffering from dementia, ergo Bronxitos...).
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chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by chep3 on Oct 17, 2011 22:05:29 GMT -5
Chep, what's wrong with a combo guard? We've done very well running combos out there. Nothing in a vacuum. It's just I think we've done fine with 2 combos playing at the same time, but the only real combos on the roster when DSR comes will be him and Markel. I'm still a wait and see on Jabril's point skills. And I'm not that excited about a 6'0 6'2 backcourt. I would prefer a guy with more solid PG skills that we could use as a sub for Markel, or, if we were to go with a combo, a bigger combo who would be more likely to defend 2s. But none of that is a huge complaint. I'm cautious about the kid but think he'll be a contributor. I guess I fall between the "he's top 50 so he's gotta be good" crowd and the RDF/bronxie "he's not athletic enough to contribute" crowd.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Oct 18, 2011 8:44:28 GMT -5
He can and will contribute as his jumper appears to be good but athletically from a defensive stand point is where Bronxitos has his concerns. Markel is similar athletically to DSR and I am almost sure he is not going to be a good defender. So his backup comes in and he is as bad or worse? I want to see someone at PG who can rag the ball defensively and get to the cup and finish/set others up offensively. I want this kid to be long and wiry not stout with short limbs. Chep, what's wrong with a combo guard? We've done very well running combos out there. Nothing in a vacuum. It's just I think we've done fine with 2 combos playing at the same time, but the only real combos on the roster when DSR comes will be him and Markel. I'm still a wait and see on Jabril's point skills. And I'm not that excited about a 6'0 6'2 backcourt. I would prefer a guy with more solid PG skills that we could use as a sub for Markel, or, if we were to go with a combo, a bigger combo who would be more likely to defend 2s. But none of that is a huge complaint. I'm cautious about the kid but think he'll be a contributor. I guess I fall between the "he's top 50 so he's gotta be good" crowd and the RDF/bronxie "he's not athletic enough to contribute" crowd.
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chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by chep3 on Oct 18, 2011 9:17:21 GMT -5
He can and will contribute as his jumper appears to be good but athletically from a defensive stand point is where Bronxitos has his concerns. Markel is similar athletically to DSR and I am almost sure he is not going to be a good defender. So his backup comes in and he is as bad or worse? I want to see someone at PG who can rag the ball defensively and get to the cup and finish/set others up offensively. I want this kid to be long and wiry not stout with short limbs. No, I get that, and I'm not really disagreeing with you. I guess you could say I'm just a little more hopeful that his defensive shortcomings can be hidden by the rest of the team. I'm with you though on the defensive PG--we haven't had a guy who can hound quick guards since Rivers. Christon had a better chance at being that guy than anyone on this roster. Hopefully we can snag Jordan and he'll be that guy. And while I think Markel will probably never be a great defender, I think he's going to be better than Chris or Austin was. He appears to me to put more effort/attention into that end of the court than Austin and Chris did. I think he'll be solid.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Oct 18, 2011 9:29:03 GMT -5
Aren't we expecting Jabril to be the "defensive guard"?
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Oct 18, 2011 9:39:05 GMT -5
I think Jabril's going to be a good defender, but he's not checking quick 1's, the Johnny Flynns and Mike Conleys of the world that have given us fits (to say nothing of the Kemba Walkers). If he proves me wrong, then that kid is going to be one of the 3 most important recruits of JTIII's tenure.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Oct 18, 2011 9:52:52 GMT -5
I think Jabril's going to be a good defender, but he's not checking quick 1's, the Johnny Flynns and Mike Conleys of the world that have given us fits (to say nothing of the Kemba Walkers). If he proves me wrong, then that kid is going to be one of the 3 most important recruits of JTIII's tenure. No one is checking an NBA caliber-PG one on one. It doesn't happen. And if it does, it happens once in a generation. Mike Conley couldn't check Johnny Flynn one on one and Johnny Flynn couldn't check Mike Conley one on one.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Oct 18, 2011 9:58:59 GMT -5
Rivers locked Flynn's arse up and won us the game.
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TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Oct 18, 2011 10:03:02 GMT -5
I think Jabril's going to be a good defender, but he's not checking quick 1's, the Johnny Flynns and Mike Conleys of the world that have given us fits (to say nothing of the Kemba Walkers). If he proves me wrong, then that kid is going to be one of the 3 most important recruits of JTIII's tenure. No one is checking an NBA caliber-PG one on one. It doesn't happen. And if it does, it happens once in a generation. Mike Conley couldn't check Johnny Flynn one on one and Johnny Flynn couldn't check Mike Conley one on one. I get your point, but Johnny Flynn couldn't check anyone one on one. There's a reason his name isn't Johnny Flynnd
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chep3
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Post by chep3 on Oct 18, 2011 10:44:46 GMT -5
No one is checking an NBA caliber-PG one on one. It doesn't happen. And if it does, it happens once in a generation. Mike Conley couldn't check Johnny Flynn one on one and Johnny Flynn couldn't check Mike Conley one on one. Fair point (although bronxie is right about Rivers). But we haven't kept close with those guys since Rivers left. Frankly, we haven't had anyone quick enough to check Ben Hansbrough, which, in my opinion, contributes to us switching on high ball screens so often. A better defender at the 1 could keep us from putting so much pressure on our big men on ball screens or going into general disarray against penetration like we did against Memphis last year in the first half.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Oct 18, 2011 10:44:52 GMT -5
Rivers locked Johnny Flynn up and won us a game. remember that like yesterday. If Jeremiah had stayed, there's a chance he would've gotten a shot at the league because his defense was that good and his offense may have gotten better.
That kid committed career suicide by leaving gtown
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Oct 18, 2011 10:54:41 GMT -5
We need a defensive PG who can give us something on offense occasionally. I mean that is if we had to pick between offense and defense. When I saw Chris Wright pick Derrick Rose clean I thought maybe he was the answer. That lasted all about 2 minutes.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Oct 18, 2011 11:09:22 GMT -5
Rivers' offense was SOOOOO bad. There's not a coach on the planet that could turn him into a serviceable NBA point guard. Crean has a pretty good history with combo type guards with similar size (Wes Matthews, Jerel McNeal, DWade). No one could help JR.
If you all are thinking of the overtime game with Cuse in January 2008, Flynn ended with 24 points in 45 minutes. On 23 shots, 13 of them being 3 pointers. Rivers played 22 minutes, and managed a +/- of minus 3. So, yeah, I remember him getting some nice stops on Flynn and bothering him with his size, but I think there are some nostalgia tinted memories coloring this discussion. Johnny Flynn was not losing sleep because of Jeremiah Rivers's defense.
On the more general question, there's a lot more to being a good defender than quickness and length. Those are nice qualities to have, but so are anticipation, awareness, quick hands, and intensity. If you have all of them, then you're Rajon Rondo. Awesome. Let's recruit that guy. But I'm fine recruiting guys who don't look the part as long as they have other attributes and WANT to play defense.
Ohio State had a freshman last year named Aaron Craft who got a steals all day long. But he's a small and not particularly pre-possessing looking white guy. If we signed him, there would have been bedlam among some posters around here. Bronxie and others who haven't actually scouted any of these kids beyond highlight videos that don't show a second of defensive play have no idea how well a guy like DSR plays defense. They just look at him, see he doesn't meet their definition of what a good defender is supposed to look like, and assume he's a bad defender. Basketball isn't a beauty contest.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Oct 18, 2011 11:22:29 GMT -5
Derrick Phelps, Clint McDaniel type for you old school cats out there.
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Oct 18, 2011 11:30:07 GMT -5
NY,
Rivers completely took Flynn out of that game when it counted. In overtime, Flynn couldn't even get his shot off. We were able to come back from like 10 down in the last five minutes because Flynn wasn't shredding us like he did in the first 30 minutes. Jeremiah flat out won us that game with his defense.
He did the same thing to Scottie Reynolds and Nova.
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Post by thejerseytornado on Oct 18, 2011 11:38:42 GMT -5
we used to switch on high ball screens *more* when we had good guard defenders/a good team defense. Why? because our bigs could handle that switch better and the guards were tenacious enough to front well in the post.
it had nothing to do with the athleticism of the guards. we did it with wallace, sapp, and rivers. we didn't do it with chris and austin.
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nychoya3
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Post by nychoya3 on Oct 18, 2011 11:44:25 GMT -5
I remember the game, but it was a while ago. I definitely recall Jeremiah playing good defense on Flynn. I do. But we're talking about a tiny sample size, and a lot of step back three pointers by Flynn that he can absolutely make. The margin between JR winning that game for us via his defense and Flynn beating us by hitting difficult shots is just too small for me to draw any conclusions from.
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hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Oct 18, 2011 11:45:11 GMT -5
I liked Rivers, too. Poor offense or not, he had a valuable role to play for us as a big, quick defensive guard. Unfortunately, he just didn't want to play it. Too bad he didn't have Freddy Brown's or Gene Smith's mentality.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Oct 18, 2011 11:57:25 GMT -5
BK...here is the problem with these guys. He looked up the STATS in the game and thought they told the story. Us who remember who he did to Flynn and Scottie do not need to see stats to know who won us that game. Now on recruiting. They look at numbers or the fact that he is being recruited. The keen observer looks at his tape and makes a determination for ourselves based on the eye test. NY, Rivers completely took Flynn out of that game when it counted. In overtime, Flynn couldn't even get his shot off. We were able to come back from like 10 down in the last five minutes because Flynn wasn't shredding us like he did in the first 30 minutes. Jeremiah flat out won us that game with his defense. He did the same thing to Scottie Reynolds and Nova.
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nychoya3
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by nychoya3 on Oct 18, 2011 12:09:42 GMT -5
Dude, don't tell me you've seen DSR or Anrio or any of these recruits play defense, because we both know you haven't. You've watched highlight clips on youtube. You're no kind of scout.
No offense to Daytona who is a good poster and knows his stuff, but I'll take stats (or STATS) over half remembered possessions from 4 years ago. If you're a consistently good defender, it shows up on the stat sheet. If you contested a tough three and it rimmed out a couple times in OT, well, that's all you did.
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