eb59
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Post by eb59 on Oct 15, 2011 0:53:05 GMT -5
Curious, with hind-site being 20/20 - What do people think about the lack of commitment to the Gtown Football program and athletic facilities (MSF, IAC, Etc) and the impact that this has had on putting Gtown BB in a very seriously bad position with almost no leverage in determining the future of this storied BB program.
What if, over the past decade Gtown had invested in the FB program and facilities to perhaps get them to a level equivalent with ‘Nova? Would we be in a better place than we are now, would we have more options and not be so reliant on the whims of other schools / conferences to determine the future of the Gtown BB program?
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CAHoya07
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Post by CAHoya07 on Oct 15, 2011 1:05:52 GMT -5
In a word, yes.
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Post by HometownHoya on Oct 15, 2011 3:39:31 GMT -5
If we had maintained our FB commitment from pre-WWII...yes
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Post by villacats on Oct 15, 2011 7:40:40 GMT -5
Yeah, it worked out great for us...
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Oct 15, 2011 7:59:29 GMT -5
The answer is obvious. Nonetheless taking advantage of the basketball success by upgrading the basketball facilities and getting a reasonable oncampus arena would have been helpful and prudent as well.
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eb59
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Post by eb59 on Oct 15, 2011 9:36:13 GMT -5
So do you think that if somehow the BE survives this mess, providing Gtown BB a stay execution utill the next round of realignment in a few years, that the Gtown Administration will realize the importance of having a FB option (like 'Nova) to potentially move to I-A?
One would think that with a moderate spend increase each year (schollies and facilities) for the next 5 years or so that Gtown could move into a position similar to what 'Nova has now.
Thoughts?
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 15, 2011 10:10:31 GMT -5
Curious, with hind-site being 20/20 - What do people think about the lack of commitment to the Gtown Football program and athletic facilities (MSF, IAC, Etc) and the impact that this has had on putting Gtown BB in a very seriously bad position with almost no leverage in determining the future of this storied BB program. What if, over the past decade Gtown had invested in the FB program and facilities to perhaps get them to a level equivalent with ‘Nova? Would we be in a better place than we are now, would we have more options and not be so reliant on the whims of other schools / conferences to determine the future of the Gtown BB program? "Over the past decade" is several decades too late. The only realistic way that Georgetown would have had a D-IA program - or one convertible to that level in a short span - would have been for it to buck the trend of most other Catholic universities that canceled their programs. What HometownHoya alluded to, basically. We might have ended up a poor man's BC, but it would have been an order of magnitude beyond where we are now. The only was this was going to happen would be if the institutional inertia that drives so much of the goings on at Georgetown had been behind football, rather than against it. The landscape would look quite different. FBS teams have (up to) 85 scholarships... I'm not sure about the figures, but I don't think we have 85 scholarships in all sports combined right now. FCS scholarship programs have 63, which is most of the way there. The inertia part is important because if football as an athletic cornerstone had been established and continuous, those who are in favor of keeping it low-profile and low-priority would have been the ones fighting the status quo, rather than fighting to uphold it. Resources and institutional attention aren't entirely zero-sum, but if you're dealing with a program that requires a massive investment to just get the basic trappings of respectability, they might as well be. No one on the Hilltop was seriously going to argue in favor of fast-tracking football over building the Southwest Quad or the business school building or the science building (the last of which is being paid for, in part, through a 'tax' levied on other academic programs - imagine trying to pull that with a football expenditure). The answer is obvious. Nonetheless taking advantage of the basketball success by upgrading the basketball facilities and getting a reasonable oncampus arena would have been helpful and prudent as well. Your definition of "reasonable on-campus arena" and what could actually get built are most likely worlds apart. The neighbors would sooner hire an Iranian agent to blow up Healy than allow a true on-campus showcase arena, one with luxury boxes and all the other accouterments that such venues have to have these days. DC and the surrounding areas have grown incredibly since the last time McDonough was used as a full-time venue, grown in terms of population, wealth, traffic, etc. The McDonough of the early 80s, with the capacity it had then, would never get approved today, not least because the administrative machinery of the DC government is frequently at the mercy of politicians' personal agendas. We already have crass opportunists like Vincent Orange falling over themselves to oppose an incredibly modest Campus Plan. Any proposal for a top notch on-campus arena would have been met with a political backlash of massive proportions.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Oct 15, 2011 14:14:44 GMT -5
Wasn't talking about a spectacular on-campus arena. Just one that could hold a few more thousand seats that surround the ENTIRE court. In other words one that does not look like an outdated high school gym when shown on TV let alone when one steps inside it.
You know for a university that shapes some of the top lawyers in the nation, Georgetown appears to employ and produce people who seem to have no stomach for legal and political challenges (let alone monetary ones). There seems to be little will power but an abundance of pessimism. Bemoaning the presence of guys like Vince Orange? No offense but when he was "in charge" of things in Ward 5 he wasn't taken too seriously by most of us who at the time resided in those neck of the woods. Look if anything worthwhile was easy it probably wouldn't be worth pursuing in the first place. I respect the opinion of you alums but you guys seem to always take the stance that Georgetown's hands are always tied and that it therefore never can change course and self-correct. It is instead always the same thing about "there's nothing that can be done." Do you guys ever get tired of that line or tired of obsessing over the so-called missed opportunities to make the football program a power back in the 1700s?
Maybe I'm being too harsh. Maybe I don't have any right to say such things at all, its not my school. I'm a fan of the bball program so essentially I'm only a visitor. You guys who went to Georgetown are more of the true residents. I get it that the situation is tough but from where I'm standing nothing is insurmountable. People here make claims that the ball was dropped in the first half of the 20th century when plans for the football program and a stadium were never followed through. Okay. Fine. But 30 or 50 years from now will Georgetown alum and Georgetown students think that the ball was also dropped regarding the entire athletic department between 2003 and now?
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eb59
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Post by eb59 on Oct 15, 2011 14:55:14 GMT -5
I guess what I was envisioning for Gtown over the next 5-10 years was the completion of a MSF to hold say 10k or so, which really is not a large stadium - but it could be done to make it look really nice and deserving of an institution like Gtown. Also, lets say that they add 10 scholarships per year for the next 5 years, which can't be totally outside the possibility for a school with a $1B Endowment. That would get Gtown to an equivelant level of 'Nova currently. What would this cost - like maybe a few Million more a year for the next five years? To me, this would be a worthwhile investment if it were to help secure the future of the entire athletic program (BB especially).
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eb59
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Post by eb59 on Oct 15, 2011 14:58:23 GMT -5
DFW might know better, but I think 40 Scholarships makes a program elligible as a BCS "Counter" and gtown at that point could be playing early season games against lower level FBS teams for a pretty heafty payday which also, could help to offset some of th upfront cost of improving the current program.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 15, 2011 15:11:56 GMT -5
DFW might know better, but I think 40 Scholarships makes a program elligible as a BCS "Counter" and gtown at that point could be playing early season games against lower level FBS teams for a pretty heafty payday which also, could help to offset some of th upfront cost of improving the current program. A I-AA (aka FCS) school needs 56.7 scholarships or "equivalencies" (equivalent number of students on full financial aid) to count as a game for I-A (FBS) bowl eligibility purposes. (Two students getting half financial aid each count as one "equivalency".) In the Patriot League, Colgate and Fordham (circa 60) are counters, after that it gets hazy. Lehigh and Holy Cross are presumed to be under the wire at 45-47, Lafayette at 40-42, Bucknell at 35-37. Georgetown has never disclosed its counter number--some PL fans think it's only in single digits, others say it's slightly more. I honestly don't know the number. For Georgetown to offer 56.7 in need based aid among 95 kids is not impossible, but because Georgetown doesn't give much in grant money, a lot of players rely on loans or a higher parent contribution to make up the difference, and both figures would go against the 56.7 total. Colgate pays all need for football players in outright grants, while Fordham has been offering athletic scholarships for two years in football despite the PL's ban on same. Fordham has the highest football budget in the league at $4.8 million, Georgetown the lowest at $1.5 million, half that of the next lowest program, Bucknell. A 56.7 equivalency base would require approx. $2.89 million in need based or other financial aid. Guarantee games in I-A range from $175K on the low end (Sun Belt) to upwards of $1 million for an SEC opponent. Towson (former PL school) received $510,000 this year to play Maryland.
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eb59
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Post by eb59 on Oct 15, 2011 16:05:25 GMT -5
So, at a quick glance (MSF Competion Aside) - Gtown could be in a somewhat similar position to 'Nova in terms of being able to play and get paid for "warm-up" games against FBS competion to offset costs for the program with what seems to be a fairly small investment of an additional $1.5m per year towards the FB program? If this is the case, and may allow for Gtown to in say 5-10 year make a play to go I-A (like 'Nova is doing) and protect Gtowns position in a meaningful BB conference - I can't see why the school would not make the investment. Seems a really necessary insurance policy from my perspective!
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 15, 2011 17:06:34 GMT -5
Wasn't talking about a spectacular on-campus arena. Just one that could hold a few more thousand seats that surround the ENTIRE court. In other words one that does not look like an outdated high school gym when shown on TV let alone when one steps inside it. You know for a university that shapes some of the top lawyers in the nation, Georgetown appears to employ and produce people who seem to have no stomach for legal and political challenges (let alone monetary ones). There seems to be little will power but an abundance of pessimism. Bemoaning the presence of guys like Vince Orange? No offense but when he was "in charge" of things in Ward 5 he wasn't taken too seriously by most of us who at the time resided in those neck of the woods. Look if anything worthwhile was easy it probably wouldn't be worth pursuing in the first place. I respect the opinion of you alums but you guys seem to always take the stance that Georgetown's hands are always tied and that it therefore never can change course and self-correct. It is instead always the same thing about "there's nothing that can be done." Do you guys ever get tired of that line or tired of obsessing over the so-called missed opportunities to make the football program a power back in the 1700s? Maybe I'm being too harsh. Maybe I don't have any right to say such things at all, its not my school. I'm a fan of the bball program so essentially I'm only a visitor. You guys who went to Georgetown are more of the true residents. I get it that the situation is tough but from where I'm standing nothing is insurmountable. Well, you're certainly right that no one should ever take Vincent Orange seriously, ever, for any reason. I was just using him as an example though - not a single politician has shown any indication of support for Georgetown's or any university's campus plan. Universities don't vote - neighbors do. And these neighbors have far more money to use for influence buying than the university (which can't legally do that anyway) does. I can assure you that many of us are plenty unhappy with the timidity and lack of foresight that the University has shown time and time again. That doesn't really have anything to do with an on-campus arena, though - most people involved with the program are plenty happy with playing at the Verizon Center. It's hard for me to imagine how an on-campus arena that is inconvenient to get to, has a capacity that is scarcely larger than the size of the undergraduate population (that's what "a few more thousand seats" over current capacity would be), and lacks the amenities that almost all competitive programs have would be an upgrade over a top-notch professional arena owned by an alum. In any case, sometimes pessimism is justified and one's hands really are tied. Good lawyers can get you pretty far, but they can't do much for you when your opposition has the law on its side - and if it doesn't, it can just get the City Council to rewrite the laws. There is no constitutional right to be able to build on on-campus arena or a 10,000 seat football stadium or, really, anything. In Georgetown, there's no such thing as matter-of-right building/development. The Apple Store was put behind schedule because the OGB decided that the "Apple Store look" wasn't compatible with what they thought a Wisconsin Avenue storefront should look like. And they're entirely within their rights to do so, indefinitely if they like. No one ever accused Steve Jobs of not having "little will power." You say, " I get it that the situation is tough but from where I'm standing nothing is insurmountable." Well, ok, but from where I'm standing, that's sort of like saying "sure it will be tough to build a 40-story casino in the shape of a naked woman on top of Lafayette Plaza, but nothing is insurmountable." People here make claims that the ball was dropped in the first half of the 20th century when plans for the football program and a stadium were never followed through. Okay. Fine. But 30 or 50 years from now will Georgetown alum and Georgetown students think that the ball was also dropped regarding the entire athletic department between 2003 and now? Some, like me, very well might. But most students and alumni aren't like me - they couldn't care less about football. Quite a few stakeholders would be perfectly happy to see the football program abolished entirely, as it has been once before. A not insignificant number would prefer that big-time athletics be abandoned entirely in favor of an Ivy-like non-scholarship program. All these people aren't going to just disappear in the face of some really willful people. One has to be aware of the political (both internal and external) context one is operating in and adjust accordingly. I could write 10,000 words without stopping on doable, relatively simple things that could have been/can be done to improve the football experience and athletics in general. I can name dozens of balls that have been dropped. But I also recognize that a massive upgrading of the athletics program is not in the cards, unless all of our NBA alumni suddenly open their wallets en masse. That's not pessimism - that's realism.
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RusskyHoya
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Post by RusskyHoya on Oct 15, 2011 17:08:49 GMT -5
So, at a quick glance (MSF Competion Aside) - Gtown could be in a somewhat similar position to 'Nova in terms of being able to play and get paid for "warm-up" games against FBS competion to offset costs for the program with what seems to be a fairly small investment of an additional $1.5m per year towards the FB program? If this is the case, and may allow for Gtown to in say 5-10 year make a play to go I-A (like 'Nova is doing) and protect Gtowns position in a meaningful BB conference - I can't see why the school would not make the investment. Seems a really necessary insurance policy from my perspective! Speaking as someone who works at the university: in absolutely no way is $1.5 million per year "a fairly small investment." Certainly not to the constellation of faculty and administrators competing for resources.
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Post by hoyasaxa2003 on Oct 15, 2011 19:23:43 GMT -5
To play devil's advocate: There has been much chatter here about how we cannot add Memphis to the Big East because their football program is not good enough. What makes anybody think that a high level Georgetown I-AA or very low level I-A team would in any way improve Georgetown's position? Sure, it might guarantee a place in a Conference USA type of conference, but it's certainly not enough to get us into a BCS conference - and that is certainly true if things end up consolidating at 64.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Oct 15, 2011 23:11:40 GMT -5
Well, you're certainly right that no one should ever take Vincent Orange seriously, ever, for any reason. I was just using him as an example though - not a single politician has shown any indication of support for Georgetown's or any university's campus plan. Universities don't vote - neighbors do. And these neighbors have far more money to use for influence buying than the university (which can't legally do that anyway) does. The neighborhood was named after the university. I know it doesn't mean anything but let's put some things in perspective. This is freaking Gtown university and I think in the end it would win a battle to put a new on campus arena on its own campus grounds. The school has to first though be willing to play the game with the DC Council and all the other politicians. Hell, maybe it could even convince the politicians to join their side by stating that the obstructionists in the Georgetown neighborhood are, by being against the building of a new arena, are against the creation of jobs and are getting in the way of the job creators. That seems to be the type of positions government types lean towards these days. A new arena, no matter its size, shows that a university is serious about its program. And if the arena looks nice it also can help attract recruits regardless of how big it is (or isn't). It is an investment for the future and helps a university not look so second or third rate when dealing with other schools it is trying to lead or get on its side. That's my take at least. The arena has to be small because of the school's lack of space for parking and because of the traffic nightmare that would be caused if it was relying on people from off campus to fill it up. The arena needs to be small enough that one could mostly rely on on-campus students to take up most of the seats for any meaningful games. Verizon is great. Most folks love it. But an on campus arena gives the team more flexibility and more of a homecourt advantage for those third tier conference game and the occasional second-tier non-conference contests. It also would be the type of arena that ESPN wouldn't be ashamed to send a crew to for a broadcast. There is no constitutional right forbidding it either. So you press on. But there IS an Apple Store now isn't there? Maybe the best weapon Jobs and Co had was persistence. I'm sure it was a priority for Apple. If a new on-campus arena had been a true priority for Georgetown for the last ten years the school would probably have one by now.
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lichoya68
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Post by lichoya68 on Oct 15, 2011 23:25:21 GMT -5
come on major football program i think not... arena on campus i think not... those would be im sorry to say impossible... imo.. yup fantasy.... yup not in the cards.. go hoyas .... build the iac.. stabilize the big east somehow... never with us as a football member... nope... not possible ....and move move move and..move on go hoyas
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Oct 16, 2011 12:13:09 GMT -5
Nova football is delusional about going up to FBS. They have had great years but are 1-6 right now. The CAA is a great FCS conference but to compete year in & out is tough and a number of these marginal FBS teams will lose their shirt.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Oct 16, 2011 15:27:56 GMT -5
The neighborhood was not named after the university. Georgetown was incorporated as a town in the colony of Maryland in 1751 and was a separate municipality in the District of Columbia until 1871.
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hoyatables
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Post by hoyatables on Oct 18, 2011 9:26:10 GMT -5
I'm happy the University spent its dollars on new academic facilities over the last decade.
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