Time To Stop

[calhoya]

Everyone has now had almost 48 hours to vent, analyze, overanalyze and demonstrate their personal expertise (or in many instances lack thereof) in building and maintaining a program. We lost--embarrassingly. The kids failed to live up to our expectations or their own and everyone--EVERYONE, from coaches,to players and the fans, is miserable.

The program, like all programs, needs to be examined and changes made to address shortcomings. There is always room for improvement and that includes the coaches, players and fans. However, continuous ranting and grinding of the teeth is more destructive than therapuetic and in the process things are and will be said as a criticisms or defenses of the program that diminish everyone. The reality is that Georgetown basketball is still relevant and evidence of that is apparent in the comments on this board from the monumental highs after a big win and the incredible lows after a horrible loss.

What is often lost here is that we are talking to and about people, who can and do feel the same pain and disappointment as the fans. I watched every excruciating minute of the last several weeks and while I might express my disappointment or anger differently, I did not see any lack of care or feeling on the part of any player or coach. So let's hope that the coach makes some changes and the players coming back and coming in have a renewed sense of commitment to improve over the failings of the last few season finales, but let's move on. Give the kids a break. Austin Freeman and Chris Wright have to live with Friday's loss for the rest of their lives--not any of us. Gain some perspective here and end the beat down.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

I don't think I've posted on here in a while, but I felt that I needed to say something.

Those who are complaining about first round tournament exits need to get some perspective.

1) Losing to VCU was not entirely surprising. TWe lost 4 games in a row before losing in the tournament, and everyone acts like its a surprise we lost again. he team hit a wall - it had a short bench and lacked size. That is not a knock on JTIII's recruiting, most college basketball fans can tell you that there are less quality big-men in college basketball this year than in past years. The lack of a bench is something that is a systemic problem with how JTIII coaches, it has always been an issue from the beginning:

2004-2005: 5/6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Owens, Hibbert)
2005-2006: 6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Hibbert, Owens)
2006-2007: 7 man rotation (Wallace, Sapp, Green, Hibbert, Summers, Ewing, Macklin) (Edgerson also started for a while until he had to transfer)
2007-2008: 8 man rotation (sometimes 9) (Wallace, Summers, Sapp, Freeman, Wright, Hibbert, Ewing, Macklin, Rivers)
2008-2009: 6 man rotation (Summers, Wright, Freeman, Sapp, Monroe, Clark)
2009-2010: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Monroe, Clark, Thompson, Vaughn)
2010-2011: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Clark, Lubick, Thompson, Vaughn)

With the exception of 2007-2008 where Roy stayed and we got an amazing recruiting class because of our Final Four appearance, JT3 has always had a short bench. It is how he coaches. I didn't hear anyone complaining about it when we went to the Final Four or won back-to-back Big East titles. It only became a problem when we lost. Get over it.

2) You don't know how good you have it. At the risk of seeming old and crabby, anyone who doesn't remember how bad things were under Esh needs to shut up. We are consistently ranked, in the mix for big recruits, beat ranked teams, and on tv. None of those things were happening in 2003-2004. If you want to get rid of the coach who filled the Verizon Center for big games, get ready to eat crow if we hire the wrong coach and you have to endure only seeing the team on SportsCenter when we are getting destroyed, sitting in an empty Verizon Center with the upper deck hidden behind a black curtain, and reading stories about how the program is no longer relevant. It's not fun.

[gohoyas408]

Mar 20, 2011 9:24:57 GMT -5 StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) said:

I don't think I've posted on here in a while, but I felt that I needed to say something.

Those who are complaining about first round tournament exits need to get some perspective.

1) Losing to VCU was not entirely surprising. TWe lost 4 games in a row before losing in the tournament, and everyone acts like its a surprise we lost again. he team hit a wall - it had a short bench and lacked size. That is not a knock on JTIII's recruiting, most college basketball fans can tell you that there are less quality big-men in college basketball this year than in past years. The lack of a bench is something that is a systemic problem with how JTIII coaches, it has always been an issue from the beginning:

2004-2005: 5/6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Owens, Hibbert)
2005-2006: 6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Hibbert, Owens)
2006-2007: 7 man rotation (Wallace, Sapp, Green, Hibbert, Summers, Ewing, Macklin) (Edgerson also started for a while until he had to transfer)
2007-2008: 8 man rotation (sometimes 9) (Wallace, Summers, Sapp, Freeman, Wright, Hibbert, Ewing, Macklin, Rivers)
2008-2009: 6 man rotation (Summers, Wright, Freeman, Sapp, Monroe, Clark)
2009-2010: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Monroe, Clark, Thompson, Vaughn)
2010-2011: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Clark, Lubick, Thompson, Vaughn)

With the exception of 2007-2008 where Roy stayed and we got an amazing recruiting class because of our Final Four appearance, JT3 has always had a short bench. It is how he coaches. I didn't hear anyone complaining about it when we went to the Final Four or won back-to-back Big East titles. It only became a problem when we lost. Get over it.

2) You don't know how good you have it. At the risk of seeming old and crabby, anyone who doesn't remember how bad things were under Esh needs to shut up. We are consistently ranked, in the mix for big recruits, beat ranked teams, and on tv. None of those things were happening in 2003-2004. If you want to get rid of the coach who filled the Verizon Center for big games, get ready to eat crow if we hire the wrong coach and you have to endure only seeing the team on SportsCenter when we are getting destroyed, sitting in an empty Verizon Center with the upper deck hidden behind a black curtain, and reading stories about how the program is no longer relevant. It's not fun.

Great write up!

[757hoyafan]

I didn't hear anyone complaining about it when we went to the Final Four or won back-to-back Big East titles. It only became a problem when we lost. Get over it.
****************************

Damn! This is beautiful. I am about to shed a tear. lol. Great job!

[nyhoya2]

I don't quite get the math on the almost 48 hours, but fair points.

[calhoya]

nyhoya, hence the word "almost", but perhaps I should have said 36 hours.

[AltoSaxa]

While I agree with the sentiment of this thread we also need to acknowledge that much of the constructive (emphasis) criticism is from many in the fan base who are not content with our successes thus far ... and I offer the opinion there is nothing wrong with wanting more.

Final four, BET finals, etc are fine but some want the program to move to a higher level and be, for arguments sake, a perennial sweet sixteen or better team. This is not only important for the fan base but is also important for the financial impact on and exposure for the University.

Using the Esh years as an argument that the fan base should be satisfied is myopic. Taking into the account JT III's entire body of work (wins, visibility, recruiting, etc.) I am content. I am not, however, satisfied with our early exits from the NCAA tournament and in time the quality of his entire body of work may lessen. If the "lack of bench is something that is a systemic problem with how JT III coaches" and his teams have "short benches and lacked size" and you believe the short bench is part of the problem then "how JT III coaches" has to change. He has to be held accountable. Recent recruiting patterns suggest change is coming.

If we ignore the ranting and raving then you will see there is substantive discussion regarding our team's weaknesses extending from the coaching staff to the player. Its this discussion that I enjoy and constructive criticism should not be dismissed.

[bronxhoya87]

Using your logic we should always expect to go out early because of hitting the wall since JT3 will always use a short bench? That does not make Bronxitos feel better.

Mar 20, 2011 9:24:57 GMT -5 StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) said:

I don't think I've posted on here in a while, but I felt that I needed to say something.

Those who are complaining about first round tournament exits need to get some perspective.

1) Losing to VCU was not entirely surprising. TWe lost 4 games in a row before losing in the tournament, and everyone acts like its a surprise we lost again. he team hit a wall - it had a short bench and lacked size. That is not a knock on JTIII's recruiting, most college basketball fans can tell you that there are less quality big-men in college basketball this year than in past years. The lack of a bench is something that is a systemic problem with how JTIII coaches, it has always been an issue from the beginning:

2004-2005: 5/6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Owens, Hibbert)
2005-2006: 6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Hibbert, Owens)
2006-2007: 7 man rotation (Wallace, Sapp, Green, Hibbert, Summers, Ewing, Macklin) (Edgerson also started for a while until he had to transfer)
2007-2008: 8 man rotation (sometimes 9) (Wallace, Summers, Sapp, Freeman, Wright, Hibbert, Ewing, Macklin, Rivers)
2008-2009: 6 man rotation (Summers, Wright, Freeman, Sapp, Monroe, Clark)
2009-2010: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Monroe, Clark, Thompson, Vaughn)
2010-2011: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Clark, Lubick, Thompson, Vaughn)

With the exception of 2007-2008 where Roy stayed and we got an amazing recruiting class because of our Final Four appearance, JT3 has always had a short bench. It is how he coaches. I didn't hear anyone complaining about it when we went to the Final Four or won back-to-back Big East titles. It only became a problem when we lost. Get over it.

2) You don't know how good you have it. At the risk of seeming old and crabby, anyone who doesn't remember how bad things were under Esh needs to shut up. We are consistently ranked, in the mix for big recruits, beat ranked teams, and on tv. None of those things were happening in 2003-2004. If you want to get rid of the coach who filled the Verizon Center for big games, get ready to eat crow if we hire the wrong coach and you have to endure only seeing the team on SportsCenter when we are getting destroyed, sitting in an empty Verizon Center with the upper deck hidden behind a black curtain, and reading stories about how the program is no longer relevant. It's not fun.

[HoyaNyr320]

Great post St.Pete.

I'd also like to add that its time for posters to stop saying "JTIII only won with Esh's recruits." This is probably one of the most laughable comments I've read. Yes, Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert were Esherick recruits, but who may I ask do these revisionist posters think was going to pass the ball to Green and Hibbert if Esherick had stayed around? Who was going to be the outside threat that forced defenses to think twice about double teaming either Jeff or Roy? Was Cornelio Guibunda going to be our outside threat? Matt Causey? Maybe Esherick had another Rayshawn Reed up his sleeve? A second coming of Drew Hall?

The fact is, JTIII recruited the following:

Jonathan Wallace
Jessie Sapp
Dajuan Summers
Patrick Ewing, Jr. (people seem to forget that Ewing Jr. didn't want any part of Georgetown while Esh was around)

Without those 4 guys, we do not get to the Final Four. Period.

[DanMcQ]

Mar 20, 2011 10:45:29 GMT -5 AltoSaxa said:

While I agree with the sentiment of this thread we also need to acknowledge that much of the constructive (emphasis) criticism is from many in the fan base who are not content with our successes thus far ... and I offer the opinion there is nothing wrong with wanting more.

Final four, BET finals, etc are fine but some want the program to move to a higher level and be, for arguments sake, a perennial sweet sixteen or better team. This is not only important for the fan base but is also important for the financial impact on and exposure for the University.

Using the Esh years as an argument that the fan base should be satisfied is myopic. Taking into the account JT III's entire body of work (wins, visibility, recruiting, etc.) I am content. I am not, however, satisfied with our early exits from the NCAA tournament and in time the quality of his entire body of work may lessen. If the "lack of bench is something that is a systemic problem with how JT III coaches" and his teams have "short benches and lacked size" and you believe the short bench is part of the problem then "how JT III coaches" has to change. He has to be held accountable. Recent recruiting patterns suggest change is coming.

If we ignore the ranting and raving then you will see there is substantive discussion regarding our team's weaknesses extending from the coaching staff to the player. Its this discussion that I enjoy and constructive criticism should not be dismissed.

Well said - I agree.

[gujake]

Mar 20, 2011 10:45:29 GMT -5 AltoSaxa said:

While I agree with the sentiment of this thread we also need to acknowledge that much of the constructive (emphasis) criticism is from many in the fan base who are not content with our successes thus far ... and I offer the opinion there is nothing wrong with wanting more.

Final four, BET finals, etc are fine but some want the program to move to a higher level and be, for arguments sake, a perennial sweet sixteen or better team. This is not only important for the fan base but is also important for the financial impact on and exposure for the University.

Using the Esh years as an argument that the fan base should be satisfied is myopic. Taking into the account JT III's entire body of work (wins, visibility, recruiting, etc.) I am content. I am not, however, satisfied with our early exits from the NCAA tournament and in time the quality of his entire body of work may lessen. If the "lack of bench is something that is a systemic problem with how JT III coaches" and his teams have "short benches and lacked size" and you believe the short bench is part of the problem then "how JT III coaches" has to change. He has to be held accountable. Recent recruiting patterns suggest change is coming.

If we ignore the ranting and raving then you will see there is substantive discussion regarding our team's weaknesses extending from the coaching staff to the player. Its this discussion that I enjoy and constructive criticism should not be dismissed.

Great post. I don't understand the constant comparisons to the Esh years at all.

[AltoSaxa]

I also need to say this: In the end, moving past my 'fan frustration,' I WAS ENTERTAINED. I enjoyed going from OOC superiority to 1 and 4 to 8 straight ... What a rollercoaster! In the end we flopped .... BUT I was entertained and am grateful for this and I am grateful year in and year out we field a competitive team ... BUT I want more.

I want success for JT III. He is a good man, a good coach and a good representative of GU. His players are wonderful representatives of GU. I want them to succeed too ... first, for them; second, for GU; third for me and HOYATALK .

He has and should have a wider margin of error and a longer period to make this happen. The Thompson legacy is good for GU and college basketball. If you are a fan of Georgetown University ... not the basketball team but the University then you have to want JT III to succeed.

How much time? I do not know. His initial years were beyond stellar. The recent years not so good. All in all we are talking 7 years (correct me if I am wrong). I want to revisit this issue in 2015-16 when the '11 and '12 recruits graduate. For me this will be an adequate sample to judge what our long-term future may (emphasis) hold.

So far I am impressed with the '11 recruits and the fact that Porter is still on the radar. I am also impressed with our '12 target of Anderson and Ochefu. For me recent recruiting trends dampen all cynicism I may have after this most recent NCAA exit. Then again I didn't have any cycncism when Summers, Freeman, Wright, Monroe etc. signed on ... why is that? When it's good I don't complain ... I reserve that for when it's bad

Again, for me, let's talk in 2015-16 about the state of the program.

[TC]

Mar 20, 2011 10:45:29 GMT -5 AltoSaxa said:

Final four, BET finals, etc are fine but some want the program to move to a higher level and be, for arguments sake, a perennial sweet sixteen or better team. This is not only important for the fan base but is also important for the financial impact on and exposure for the University.

Okay, what team do you consider a "perennial Sweet 16" team or better? And in what ways structurally do we match up with that program?

My own take on this is that there really is no such thing as a "perennial Sweet 16 or better" team and that the only programs that are close to that level are programs that have vastly better facilities, money, resources, and/or cheat brazenly and openly (see Calipari, John).

The tournament is single elimination - it is a crapshoot. It is as much a product of luck, chance, and circumstance as it is of skill and accomplishment. A coach should be judged on the results of the season and the external benchmarks (graduation rate, scandal, sanctions, etc) rather than on tournament success because the season is a process and over time things will even out and good results in-season will consistently pay dividends in the post-season.

Using the Esh years as an argument that the fan base should be satisfied is myopic. Taking into the account JT III's entire body of work (wins, visibility, recruiting, etc.) I am content. I am not, however, satisfied with our early exits from the NCAA tournament and in time the quality of his entire body of work may lessen. If the "lack of bench is something that is a systemic problem with how JT III coaches" and his teams have "short benches and lacked size" and you believe the short bench is part of the problem then "how JT III coaches" has to change. He has to be held accountable.

He just said short bench is not a problem! Read that post again - it's only a problem when the team loses.

[cosmopolitanhoya]

everyone on this board either went to georgetown or has some kinda affliation with the hoyas. everyone wants this program to succeed. some are more impatient and flamey and vent their uncontrollable anger on this forum. who knows? i ain't like any of those forum trolls, but maybe gtown program doin bad for them is maybe as heartbreaking as their gfs cheatin on them.

that said, i do believe some people here do bring constructive criticms (i.e. RDF/the way/RB/PR). i dont think its fair to blame 19-20 years old kids for the failure of the team (yes, they are accountable somewhat when school pays their full tuition for them to excel in bball, but they are not professionals; they are STUDENT ATHELETES). i am more fine with criticisms toward coach, cuz he is the one man responsibile for the team's lack of success. now obviously, it shouldn't be as flamey as fire this man that is a big part of the hoya family. but demandin him to change somethin and analzyin why we failed hard? don't think it's so 12 years oldish.

[harlemhoya]

Mar 20, 2011 16:19:43 GMT -5 cosmopolitanhoya said:

everyone on this board either went to georgetown or has some kinda affliation with the hoyas. everyone wants this program to succeed. some are more impatient and flamey and vent their uncontrollable anger on this forum. who knows? i ain't like any of those forum trolls, but maybe gtown program doin bad for them is maybe as heartbreaking as their gfs cheatin on them.

that said, i do believe some people here do bring constructive criticms (i.e. RDF/the way/RB/PR). i dont think its fair to blame 19-20 years old kids for the failure of the team (yes, they are accountable somewhat when school pays their full tuition for them to excel in bball, but they are not professionals; they are STUDENT ATHELETES). i am more fine with criticisms toward coach, cuz he is the one man responsibile for the team's lack of success. now obviously, it shouldn't be as flamey as fire this man that is a big part of the hoya family. but demandin him to change somethin and analzyin why we failed hard? don't think it's so 12 years oldish.

Sleepy one of the better posters on this board. You can tell that he/she knows ball.

[michaelgrahamfan]

Completely agree with the lack of playing depth. I also believes Sims sad performance has hurt our team for 3 years as he held an important spot on our roster which was supposed to be a back up to Roy and then as a starter. I have to believe that this was JTIII's plan and that failure hurt our recruiting direction, the depth of our bench, the flexibility of coaching options and the ability to gamble on defense. The more bench play the more energy the more ability to pressure. ARGHH

[btb (Account Inactive)]

Mar 20, 2011 8:39:42 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Everyone has now had almost 48 hours to vent, analyze, overanalyze and demonstrate their personal expertise (or in many instances lack thereof) in building and maintaining a program. We lost--embarrassingly. The kids failed to live up to our expectations or their own and everyone--EVERYONE, from coaches,to players and the fans, is miserable.

The program, like all programs, needs to be examined and changes made to address shortcomings. There is always room for improvement and that includes the coaches, players and fans. However, continuous ranting and grinding of the teeth is more destructive than therapuetic and in the process things are and will be said as a criticisms or defenses of the program that diminish everyone. The reality is that Georgetown basketball is still relevant and evidence of that is apparent in the comments on this board from the monumental highs after a big win and the incredible lows after a horrible loss.

What is often lost here is that we are talking to and about people, who can and do feel the same pain and disappointment as the fans. I watched every excruciating minute of the last several weeks and while I might express my disappointment or anger differently, I did not see any lack of care or feeling on the part of any player or coach. So let's hope that the coach makes some changes and the players coming back and coming in have a renewed sense of commitment to improve over the failings of the last few season finales, but let's move on. Give the kids a break. Austin Freeman and Chris Wright have to live with Friday's loss for the rest of their lives--not any of us. Gain some perspective here and end the beat down.

Thank you so much sir! This oughta shut em up

[Bay99]

Mar 20, 2011 9:24:57 GMT -5 StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) said:

I don't think I've posted on here in a while, but I felt that I needed to say something.

Those who are complaining about first round tournament exits need to get some perspective.

1) Losing to VCU was not entirely surprising. TWe lost 4 games in a row before losing in the tournament, and everyone acts like its a surprise we lost again. he team hit a wall - it had a short bench and lacked size. That is not a knock on JTIII's recruiting, most college basketball fans can tell you that there are less quality big-men in college basketball this year than in past years. The lack of a bench is something that is a systemic problem with how JTIII coaches, it has always been an issue from the beginning:

2004-2005: 5/6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Owens, Hibbert)
2005-2006: 6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Hibbert, Owens)
2006-2007: 7 man rotation (Wallace, Sapp, Green, Hibbert, Summers, Ewing, Macklin) (Edgerson also started for a while until he had to transfer)
2007-2008: 8 man rotation (sometimes 9) (Wallace, Summers, Sapp, Freeman, Wright, Hibbert, Ewing, Macklin, Rivers)
2008-2009: 6 man rotation (Summers, Wright, Freeman, Sapp, Monroe, Clark)
2009-2010: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Monroe, Clark, Thompson, Vaughn)
2010-2011: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Clark, Lubick, Thompson, Vaughn)

With the exception of 2007-2008 where Roy stayed and we got an amazing recruiting class because of our Final Four appearance, JT3 has always had a short bench. It is how he coaches. I didn't hear anyone complaining about it when we went to the Final Four or won back-to-back Big East titles. It only became a problem when we lost. Get over it.

2) You don't know how good you have it. At the risk of seeming old and crabby, anyone who doesn't remember how bad things were under Esh needs to shut up. We are consistently ranked, in the mix for big recruits, beat ranked teams, and on tv. None of those things were happening in 2003-2004. If you want to get rid of the coach who filled the Verizon Center for big games, get ready to eat crow if we hire the wrong coach and you have to endure only seeing the team on SportsCenter when we are getting destroyed, sitting in an empty Verizon Center with the upper deck hidden behind a black curtain, and reading stories about how the program is no longer relevant. It's not fun.

Well put. It should also be noted that VCU thumped a good Purdue team, a team just about everyone (Vegas included) would have favored comfortably if the the Hoyas had advanced. Doesn't make me feel better about our loss, but shows a) the bracketologists are usually wrong and b) our loss seems to have much more in common with Davidson in 2008 than Ohio last year. No apologies for poor performance--that it definitely was--but we've happened to draw Cinderella as a partner in two of the last three dances.

[professorhoya]

Mar 20, 2011 9:24:57 GMT -5 StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) said:

2004-2005: 5/6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Owens, Hibbert)
2005-2006: 6 man rotation (Cook, Bowman, Wallace, Green, Hibbert, Owens)
2006-2007: 7 man rotation (Wallace, Sapp, Green, Hibbert, Summers, Ewing, Macklin) (Edgerson also started for a while until he had to transfer)
2007-2008: 8 man rotation (sometimes 9) (Wallace, Summers, Sapp, Freeman, Wright, Hibbert, Ewing, Macklin, Rivers)
2008-2009: 6 man rotation (Summers, Wright, Freeman, Sapp, Monroe, Clark)
2009-2010: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Monroe, Clark, Thompson, Vaughn)
2010-2011: 6 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Clark, Lubick, Thompson, Vaughn)

This is historical revisionism.

Macklin hardly payed in 07-08

2010-2011: 9 man rotation (Wright, Freeman, Clark, Lubick, Thompson, Vaughn, Sims, Bennimon, Starks)