RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jan 5, 2011 12:22:05 GMT -5
Seaweed, you emerge to really debate this? BTW--if you would like a time frame for Jason Clark's defensive breakdown--I present you the St. John's game. I ask you this GENTLEmen: Present your case in a manner that proves my analysis is wrong? If you do, I'm more then happy to admit you're correct and will stop posting. Please feel free. I'm more then happy to hear what about what I've said is wrong. I've provided facts--the numbers support my stance, the other fans who don't want to agree with me are starting to see it--and I've been saying this for 3 years now. If it was wrong--then you wouldn't need to get so upset about it--but you know like I do--that I'm correct. Problem is--you guys can't figure out that I want this program to win as bad as you do. We just see the game differently. I find anyone who refuses do things that work/continues to do things that do not--to be stubborn/bullheaded but when it's gone on for 3 seasons now--it's going to another level--and it is what it is. Now assessing what someone is doing/who they are as a person are 2 different things. This is a Georgetown basketball board--not a personal evaluation. I think III is a great representative of the school, think he's done great job of running things in a clean way, has nice guys on the team, etc.....I compliment him numerous times when he outcoaches someone/improves the team (was on here all the time complimenting his moves in non conference) but in the Big East--he's reverted to the stuff that has failed him/program since 2009. Why? Well please tell us because I've mentioned my stance. Ed--you complimented the analysis I posted the other night, now you disagree because you like that some fans who have no answers--but want them (Seaweed, I'll breakdown Jason Clark ala the Zapruder Film if you like--but it's something that 90% of this board seems to understand that you don't--he's a poor defensive player) have gone on the warpath. Hate me all you like--but this coach has failed his team in the past 3 games. They are lucky to be 1-2 right now. He has tapes of not just the Hoyas--but opponents--he controls what happens/what doesn't-so as angry as you/I get--it all comes down to what he does/how he coaches. Believe me--I hope there is a time you/others who can't stand my viewpoint can taunt me, etc....because I want this team to WIN--but I just feel that wanting them to win--and doing the things necessary to win are not happening. I defended the players after SJU loss. They were failed by the coach. If you cannot adapt to what guys can/cant do--you are a failing as a coach/leader. It's just being honest. Now if you don't like how I'm saying it--fine--understand but it doesn't make the points of discussion wrong. The funniest part about your posts is that you really think you "see the game differently" than others. Newsflash, Mr. Naismith - pretty much all your posts are variations on "We need to play HARDER", "We need to play BETTER", "The KIDS need to WANT it", "The coach needs to make DIFFERENT decisions," and then we will "WIN/BE HAPPY." You don't see the game any differently. You're pointing out things that pretty much everyone here sees and usually acknowledges. You just feel the need to post constantly and at great length all the damn time. You're an aggressive message board bully who feels the need to taunt those who dare disagree with you with childish rants about juice boxes and milkshakes. Five years ago, it was passably funny. Now it's just kind of sad. Oh, and let it never be forgotten that during the 2006-2007 season you declared after the Duke loss that the team would not make the NCAA Tournament - of course you caveated that dumb statement with your usual assortment of "unless they play BETTER, unless they play HARDER, unless the coach starts RETURNING MY STALKERISH EMAILS" - but still. You saw the game "differently" back then too, and you were wrong. LOUD wrong. I've been on here since this board's inception--back to the old board. There are several people who can support that I've had my moments-but basketball wise--I also know what I'm talking about. Duke game-hell that supported my claim. The team was playing mechanical. They were even worse against Nova at home that year--and if they played like that-they'd have suffered same fate as the '09 team did--it's not rocket science--things need to change when you are playing too mechanical/not reacting on the court. I've stated numerous basketball reasons--that some not many don't understand. For instance-I was talking about playing with more tempo/pace--and got criticized for "not liking the system" years ago. My point was--you have to push ball into frontcourt to get into offensive sets earlier. Not to be a run/gun team. I've stated the type of player that needs to be recruited if you are going to run this system--and low and behold--look at the results? How's small ball within III's system worked? Playing hard--been an issue at times. Brought it up--guilty. Playing with some urgency--been an issue--brought it up. Lack of using bench--been an issue/bring it up. I'll also admit when I'm wrong/or commend the players/team for playing well. Anyone with a history here--like me or not--will vouch for that. I'll eat crow, but I've not been a smart ass about anything after this last game. I'm talking basketball--and provided numerous things. Let's put it this way--if I'm "tiresome"--then why are the things I've stated about this particular group/approach/use still proving to be correct 3 years later? If I was wrong--everyone would ignore me--because there wouldn't be any reason to respond. Wanting me to be wrong/being wrong are two different things. If I am--fire away and I'll be first to start a thread/admit I was wrong. Being critical isn't being a "bad" fan. It's sharing frustration on a messageboard outlet to discuss the team. If anyone is a Hoya fan-they want them to win. I'd rather be wrong/see team win/succeed then watch a game and see the same things discussed here play out in another painful loss. If that is "tiresome"--don't read it. My sarcasm/jokes have time/place--this crap isn't something I find funny. Losing because of an inability/refusal to change is painful/miserable. Thinking it will go away because of "positive talk" is laughable. Things get corrected when negative aspects are addressed and corrected. Not because a poster quits posting or posts how you like/want them to. If you want negative posts to stop--then hope III does his job better. Simple solution.
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seaweed
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,670
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Post by seaweed on Jan 5, 2011 12:22:33 GMT -5
hardy is a top scorer in the league, leads his team - it is a wonder his coach wanted to ball in his hands. you should be a coach
you are unique and nobody understands the game as you do. please, tell us more. more about the shortcomings of the teenagers who play for us. more about the coach who runs a program we all respect. tell us how better the world would be if only you were in charge. i am now more than ever convinced that you are a troglodyte who bets too much on sports
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jan 5, 2011 12:57:45 GMT -5
hardy is a top scorer in the league, leads his team - it is a wonder his coach wanted to ball in his hands. you should be a coach you are unique and nobody understands the game as you do. please, tell us more. more about the shortcomings of the teenagers who play for us. more about the coach who runs a program we all respect. tell us how better the world would be if only you were in charge. i am now more than ever convinced that you are a troglodyte who bets too much on sports The wreak of desperation is upon us. I stated what Lavin said-yes we all know that about Hardy--so isn't that indictive of a poor coaching decision by III? More you respond--more you make my points for me--please keep it up. Other night it was "please provide time of game where Jason Clark got beat on defense" and now it's "I'm being too mean" for saying Clark can't play defense. It was "Clark is great defender because III puts him on best offensive player"-but then it's "We all know Hardy is doing this"-well how did it turn out? You guys out of Georgetown yet and into the real world? END RESULT MATTERS--not the formula. Again--what is the end result? Of the game other night? Of Clark's defense for 2 1/2 seasons? Of team's record since this group has played? Of team since III has utilized small ball approach? Since you guys get on me for repeating things--how about this one aspect you won't address---where have I been proven wrong? Please share it. I've read frustration from you that has resorted into personal attacks--and from several--so what's your answer? What would you do? Why isn't the coach getting the results? I defended the players the other night--they only do what they are told/play because they are in the game. They are trying-and against SJU they played hard--but that doesn't absolve coach for putting people in wrong position? So now the rules of messageboard or being a "fan" are to not discuss any shortcomings of a player or discuss what is/isn't happening? See how long this place exists with that type of approach and I know DFW/Dan and company have no issue with program being discussed as long as it follows guidelines. For all the crap I deserve/earned from you guys--this is an odd time to go on the warpath. Especially Seaweed--seriously--you don't answer anything--you respond with nothing but an attack and have nothing to back it up but "Jason's great because coach is playing him". Maybe I should be thankful I didn't attend Georgetown--because it seems many who did--seem to support doing things that don't work but in theory sound good because the boss says so. Who cares if the team is losing--III sees the game this way and lord knows--only a coach knows best. Sometimes a coach can be too close to things--and it's on his assistants to step up and say "This is not working". It hasnt/isn't/won't. If that means I'm undeducated or not intelligent--then I'm a proud member of DUMBASS HOYA FANS R US--because I'd rather be dumb and see team win then be "smart" and lose.
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Post by williambraskyiii on Jan 5, 2011 13:07:45 GMT -5
hardy is a top scorer in the league, leads his team - it is a wonder his coach wanted to ball in his hands. you should be a coach you are unique and nobody understands the game as you do. please, tell us more. more about the shortcomings of the teenagers who play for us. more about the coach who runs a program we all respect. tell us how better the world would be if only you were in charge. i am now more than ever convinced that you are a troglodyte who bets too much on sports The wreak of desperation is upon us. I stated what Lavin said-yes we all know that about Hardy--so isn't that indictive of a poor coaching decision by III? More you respond--more you make my points for me--please keep it up. Other night it was "please provide time of game where Jason Clark got beat on defense" and now it's "I'm being too mean" for saying Clark can't play defense. It was "Clark is great defender because III puts him on best offensive player"-but then it's "We all know Hardy is doing this"-well how did it turn out? You guys out of Georgetown yet and into the real world? END RESULT MATTERS--not the formula. Again--what is the end result? Of the game other night? Of Clark's defense for 2 1/2 seasons? Of team's record since this group has played? Of team since III has utilized small ball approach? Since you guys get on me for repeating things--how about this one aspect you won't address---where have I been proven wrong? Please share it. I've read frustration from you that has resorted into personal attacks--and from several--so what's your answer? What would you do? Why isn't the coach getting the results? I defended the players the other night--they only do what they are told/play because they are in the game. They are trying-and against SJU they played hard--but that doesn't absolve coach for putting people in wrong position? So now the rules of messageboard or being a "fan" are to not discuss any shortcomings of a player or discuss what is/isn't happening? See how long this place exists with that type of approach and I know DFW/Dan and company have no issue with program being discussed as long as it follows guidelines. For all the crap I deserve/earned from you guys--this is an odd time to go on the warpath. Especially Seaweed--seriously--you don't answer anything--you respond with nothing but an attack and have nothing to back it up but "Jason's great because coach is playing him". Maybe I should be thankful I didn't attend Georgetown--because it seems many who did--seem to support doing things that don't work but in theory sound good because the boss says so. Who cares if the team is losing--III sees the game this way and lord knows--only a coach knows best. Sometimes a coach can be too close to things--and it's on his assistants to step up and say "This is not working". It hasnt/isn't/won't. If that means I'm undeducated or not intelligent--then I'm a proud member of DUMBASS HOYA FANS R US--because I'd rather be dumb and see team win then be "smart" and lose. Once a poster defaults to "at least our coach runs a clean program" you have officially entered Esherickian Twilight Zone.
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Post by staggerlee on Jan 5, 2011 13:35:24 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of RDF's opinion. For example, Coach used Rivers effectively, as described. Not using Vee on Hardy in a similar fashion was a bad move. I haven't gone back to the tape, but I recall thinking that Vee was much more effective in that position while I watched the game.
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Post by upstatehoya on Jan 5, 2011 13:36:53 GMT -5
Once a poster defaults to "at least our coach runs a clean program" you have officially entered Esherickian Twilight Zone. Love this. I think III runs a good program, I think that when we have athletes with skill and size, a system that has us playing smarter than everyone else makes our team look really good. We just have a few glaring offensive issues at the moment, and I'm not sure how III is to blame/fixes them: 1. CW's shot looks awful right now. No rotation on the ball, no arc -- and he's missing left/right (as opposed to long/short), which is the mark of someone who just doesn't have his shot down. Sometimes he rushes, sometimes he passes up open looks, I just don't know what's going on here or how to fix it short of shooting drills all day. But it leads to problem #2. 2. Our dribble penetration is pretty weak. When we spread out, and the defense follows, we can attack the rim -- witness JC's and-1 at the end of the SJU game. We just don't do that a lot -- we have a bunch of offensive sets where we have a lot of hand-offs around the perimeter and don't attack the space this creates in the paint. When we do attack, Austin's pretty good at it, and he can finish in traffic. Hollis doesn't drive as much as he probably should, but it's probably a confidence issue and he'll get there. CW's problem is that he's about five inches too short to attack the rim when it's defended. Thus, when his shot's not falling, he presses and tries to take it to the rack but has a hard time finishing. As a team, we have to figure out how to use his penetration (and the kid's jet-engine fast, he can blow by his man with ease) to set up open mid-ranges or follow-on layups by our bigger guys. Maybe this is where III can shift how we're playing this year. 3. The offensive sets. When you have skilled big men, the other team expends defensive energy keeping them out of the paint. It opens lanes for cutters and easy buckets. Monroe was a master of this, as was Roy before him. When the passing sets up easy buckets, you have to collapse the D to contain the cutting lanes, which frees perimeter shooters for open looks. We have JV, who has really worked his butt off to improve his offensive game...but who needs more practice with passing/ball protection. Once he gets that, he'll be a featured weapon that opens the game up for everyone. If we can fix the offense to the point that we're an efficient scoring team, I think our defense is competent enough to win a lot of games for us.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
Posts: 2,431
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Post by Bando on Jan 5, 2011 13:39:11 GMT -5
Jesus, people, this thread is six pages. Really? The rule still applies: don't feed the trolls.
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Post by JohnnyJones on Jan 5, 2011 13:47:24 GMT -5
I'll also admit when I'm wrong/or commend the players/team for playing well. Anyone with a history here--like me or not--will vouch for that. I'll eat crow ... and I'll be first to start a thread/admit I was wrong. Being critical isn't being a "bad" fan. It's sharing frustration on a messageboard outlet to discuss the team. If anyone is a Hoya fan-they want them to win. I'd rather be wrong/see team win/succeed then watch a game and see the same things discussed here play out in another painful loss. I have also been on since the old Board and I will vouch for all of what I quoted above 100%. While I don't always agree with RDF, I almost always enjoy reading his posts and am interested in his perspective. I am not an Xs/Os fan, so I am not sure whether he knows what he is talking about, but my gut tells me he knows the game. Having said that, I have chosen to trust III. My hope/expectation is that if our current problems can be fixed by the coaching staff, III will figure it out and do what needs to be done. I am not sure how the archive function works on the site, but I wish I could find RDF's post from many years ago about Jay Bilas (before JB fell in love with GU and GU fans fell in love with him). Funny stuff. Keep posting RDF.
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Boz
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
123 Fireballs!
Posts: 10,355
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Post by Boz on Jan 5, 2011 13:58:12 GMT -5
Jesus, people, this thread is six pages. Really? The rule still applies: don't feed the trolls. As usual, on any topic that is NOT religion or politics, Bando and I are in 100% agreement.
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biggmanu
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 671
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Post by biggmanu on Jan 5, 2011 14:01:11 GMT -5
This thread has gone overboard. We were winning with 19 seconds left about to steal a road win in the big east and it just barely slipped away. A soft team doesn't have the opportunity to win a close game. Get over yourselves. Clark could have been a hero if his foot didn't come down out of bounds.
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chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,314
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Post by chep3 on Jan 5, 2011 14:23:47 GMT -5
Sometimes guys get assignments because they are better then other poor options. Defensively--that sums up this group. My issue--like others--why doesn't he at least use his bench in a manner that creates roles? For instance--he did this with Rivers. Jeremiah wasn't one of his best players--but when it came time to get a stop--he'd put him out there. Why isn't that happening now? His best on ball defender in the backcourt is Vee Sanford. Sanford provides length and more importantly an understanding of how to play defense. He doesn't crowd guys who will take him off the dribble, he gives space, he doesn't lay off shooters--he crowds them. He has good technique--which means good balance and moves his feet well. He also shades-which allows him to recover well--Jason came right at Hardy--which is awful--he was off balance and minute Hardy went left--Jason's feet were screwed up/off balance. Skipping the entire Editeding match that inevitably dominated this thread, but I just wanted to quote the part I saw that I agreed with. To me, RDF is dead on with this: this has to happen. Jason has shown himself over the past 2 years to not be quick enough to check other teams scorers. Vee hasn't proven himself to be a lockdown defender, but what he's shown so far indicates that he has that potential and that he's certainly the best we got on the roster. I don't see why Vee can't go out there at least situationally like Rivers did to see what he can give us. He moves his feet much bigger, uses his length, and sticks with guys enough to contest shots. Go back to the ND game and see how much trouble he was giving Hansbrough whereas Hansbrough was turning the corner on Jason and Chris much more easily. And the thing about Vee is, unlike Rivers, we're not playing 4 on 5 on offense when he's out there. I'm not saying he should be starting or getting more minutes than Jason. Jason is still the superior offensive player (this slump notwithstanding), but there is room for more Vee in our diet just like there was room for Rivers back in the day. I'm as staunch a JTIII defender as anyone on this board, but he's getting this one wrong. You can't keep riding a guy and expecting him to do things he's not capable of. In fact, now that I like our PG depth (Markel and Vee), out of our starting lineup, I think Chris should draw the other team's best scorer. He's not a great defender and he has no length, but Jason's not using his length either by playing too close to the ballhandler instead of giving him space and letting his long arms make up the ground when he contests. Chris might give up more outside shots, but at this point I'll take our chances.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,362
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Post by calhoya on Jan 5, 2011 15:31:27 GMT -5
None of this should be an issue. If you recruit quality and want to continue to recruit quality, then you have to find PT for the bench. This team should consider that it has 6 perimeter players ready and able to contribute--counting Hollis. We have at least 3 posts (not counting Hollis), with more limited contributions coming from Jerelle and possibly Moses. The "system" whatever the hell that means anymore should use them all. Not equal time for everyone, but recognition that we have more athletes right now than last yeaer and can afford to go harder and longer on defense than in the past. Full court pressure will wear down our players--let's give some of that back with our defense.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Jan 5, 2011 17:54:08 GMT -5
Jesus, people, this thread is six pages. Really? The rule still applies: don't feed the trolls. Way to contribute.....on to 7 pages with your help. Trolls...care to explain. If people do not agree with you they are trolls? Just how long have you been a fan young man?
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Post by HometownHoya on Jan 6, 2011 6:43:55 GMT -5
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
Posts: 2,431
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Post by Bando on Jan 6, 2011 13:03:10 GMT -5
You know, Bronxie, if I were self-aware enough to realize that my opinions swung wildly between every win or loss, I would view it as a character flaw to be corrected, rather than an opportunity to once again cause a storm on the board.
Furthermore, saying the team is "soft" or lacks "heart" are bull critiques. It's the easiest thing in the world to frame your griping in the form of immeasurable intangibles. It's much harder to actually analyze what's going on, which is why the Hoya Prospectus guys are great, and you're a troll.
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Jan 6, 2011 15:47:24 GMT -5
You know, Bronxie, if I were self-aware enough to realize that my opinions swung wildly between every win or loss, I would view it as a character flaw to be corrected, rather than an opportunity to once again cause a Editedstorm on the board. Furthermore, saying the team is "soft" or lacks "heart" are bull Edited critiques. It's the easiest thing in the world to frame your griping in the form of immeasurable intangibles. It's much harder to actually analyze what's going on, which is why the Hoya Prospectus guys are great, and you're a troll. You foolish mortal you cannot debate what Bronxie says so you call Bronxie names. Typical of foolish surface dwellers.
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superan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,900
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Post by superan on Jan 6, 2011 15:51:10 GMT -5
Bronxie's post count is 666 right now.
Nothing to see here folks. Just walk away from the temptation.
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chep3
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,314
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Post by chep3 on Jan 6, 2011 16:04:13 GMT -5
Cmon, bronxie deserves some props for "you foolish mortal." That had me chuckling at my desk.
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Post by FrazierFanatic on Jan 6, 2011 16:09:23 GMT -5
Bronxie's post count is 666 right now. Nothing to see here folks. Just walk away from the temptation. We are all condemned to the 7th circle of Bronxie! repent!
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Post by bronxhoya87 on Jan 6, 2011 16:36:15 GMT -5
If you cant defensive rebound every year you are soft. Bronxie plays ball...the only thing that will start fights (verbal and otherwise) between teammates is not defensive rebounding. You cant guard someone...... cool, switch......but defensive rebounding is akin to a running game in football. Running at your opponent is all about manhood and will.
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