OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Dec 2, 2010 8:39:05 GMT -5
Arn't Wright and Freeman the first set of starting senior guards that have played at least 3 years together since Tilmon and Bryant? It seems to me that after Tilmon and Bryant the Hoyas under JT2 and Eshrick went through a period where point guard and off guard positions never couild get in sinc due to a lot of reasons. The Hoyas now have 2 guards who have played all 4 years in JT3's system along with a third who has played 3 years in system. Since the college game has been a guard oriented game for years I think this makes all the difference in the world. With Vee, Markel, and Bowen having the opportunity to play the next 3 years together in the system, the Hoyas have the chance that history will repeat itself. You really can't underestimate the importance of that. I was playing back the Mizzu game and watched the overtime sets run by the Hoyas for Clark's three 3pt makes. They were beautiful especially the last. Without a a particular play being called: Clark came down being shadowed alll over the court by Dennimon. He ran under the goal from right to left and ended up out front on left side: after Wright passed ball to him and he returned it to Chris he runs back under the goal from left to right with Dennimon guarding as close as he could so that he would not get open look at 3pt shot; as he runs under the goal, with Chris probing with dribble out front, Freeman makes move to also go under goal from right to left; Freeman's defender trying to prevent Freeman from going back door moves with him with his back to Clark; Clark goes around Freeman to right corner wing behind Freeman and Dennimon is picked off by his own teamate trying to guard Freeman, and Clark drains the 3pt shot, beautiful. All of this was done by 5 guys all playing like a quarterback going through his progressions after the ball is snapped trying to see what the defense is giving him. They all saw the same thing and INSTINCTIVELY reacted. After watching this I thought about what Rivers said when he left, that he (paraphrasing) got bored in practice running the same screens over and over again. There was a reason Jerrimiah, and Tusaday's game was its validation.
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Post by strummer8526 on Dec 2, 2010 9:11:29 GMT -5
Arn't Wright and Freeman the first set of starting senior guards that have played at least 3 years together since Tilmon and Bryant? It seems to me that after Tilmon and Bryant the Hoyas under JT2 and Eshrick went through a period where point guard and off guard positions never couild get in sinc due to a lot of reasons. The Hoyas now have 2 guards who have played all 4 years in JT3's system along with a third who has played 3 years in system. Since the college game has been a guard oriented game for years I think this makes all the difference in the world. With Vee, Markel, and Bowen having the opportunity to play the next 3 years together in the system, the Hoyas have the chance that history will repeat itself. You really can't underestimate the importance of that. I was playing back the Mizzu game and watched the overtime sets run by the Hoyas for Clark's three 3pt makes. They were beautiful especially the last. Without a a particular play being called: Clark came down being shadowed alll over the court by Dennimon. He ran under the goal from right to left and ended up out front on left side: after Wright passed ball to him and he returned it to Chris he runs back under the goal from left to right with Dennimon guarding as close as he could so that he would not get open look at 3pt shot; as he runs under the goal, with Chris probing with dribble out front, Freeman makes move to also go under goal from right to left; Freeman's defender trying to prevent Freeman from going back door moves with him with his back to Clark; Clark goes around Freeman to right corner wing behind Freeman and Dennimon is picked off by his own teamate trying to guard Freeman, and Clark drains the 3pt shot, beautiful. All of this was done by 5 guys all playing like a quarterback going through his progressions after the ball is snapped trying to see what the defense is giving him. They all saw the same thing and INSTINCTIVELY reacted. After watching this I thought about what Rivers said when he left, that he (paraphrasing) got bored in practice running the same screens over and over again. There was a reason Jerrimiah, and Tusaday's game was its validation. Yeah, but when you're as dynamic an offensive threat as Jeremiah Rivers, . . . I seriously can't think of a way to finish that sentence. As to your point, I think you're right that having experience guards is by far the most important thing for our system (and maybe any system in the college game). The more I watch this team, the more I think the "experienced point forward" thing is way overrated. Bigs who play physical, play D, grab rebounds, and can score a little from inside is all we need. With guards playing at this high a level, everything else clicks.
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skyhoya
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Post by skyhoya on Dec 2, 2010 9:40:29 GMT -5
Baby Doc looked marginal last night in the Indiana loss.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 2, 2010 10:15:33 GMT -5
OldHoyaFan... great post!
Jeremiah also said he didn't understand the system... that was pretty clear. And, he was playing with guys like Jon, Jeff etc... guys who LOVED the system and exploited it to their own benefit. As a freshman on a highly successful... FINAL FOUR!... team, when the Upperclassmen love the system, don't you think most kids would try to learn what they are missing?
Oh well. TOO bad. He could have helped us and himself as a defensive specialist. I think he got about 18-20 mpg his second (and final) year here.
A guy with his high level of defensive capability - a specialist -- would be a significant help to the current team coming off the bench.
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Post by strummer8526 on Dec 2, 2010 10:23:50 GMT -5
OldHoyaFan... great post! Jeremiah also said he didn't understand the system... that was pretty clear. And, he was playing with guys like Jon, Jeff etc... guys who LOVED the system and exploited it to their own benefit. As a freshman on a highly successful... FINAL FOUR!... team, when the Upperclassmen love the system, don't you think most kids would try to learn what they are missing? Oh well. TOO bad. He could have helped us and himself as a defensive specialist. I think he got about 18-20 mpg his second (and final) year here. A guy with his high level of defensive capability - a specialist -- would be a significant help to the current team coming off the bench. I would take Vee over Jeremiah on O or D any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
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Post by ihoya on Dec 2, 2010 10:30:45 GMT -5
would he not have graduated by now unless he had a redshirt year for some reason?
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Post by daytonahoya31 on Dec 2, 2010 11:05:26 GMT -5
@ Strummer,
We all love Vee, but IMO he isn't in the same class as Jeremiah defensively. Baby Doc was the best defensive guard we've had here in a decade. He was a real lockdown guy, and as unreal as this sounds, I think he had NBA potential had he stayed here and finished his career. The reason is that he had pro size, pro quickness and if he had completely bought into the system he would've improved his ballhandling and his ability to run an offense. His shooting was beyond repair, but I can name plenty of guards who were 6-5, quick and athletic who played in the NBA because they could defend and just run a team. Vee is great on both sides, but Jeremiah was one of the better defensive players I've ever seen at the college level. Guys just couldn't get by him. For comparison's sake, Jason's our best perimeter defender and he's not even in the same paragraph as Jeremiah as a defender.
That being said, I've never rooted harder for a kid to fail. I'll never forgive him for talking smack about the program when he left. That story was unreal in the way he trashed us and the system. And many sources tell me that he absolutely trashed us on the recruiting trail. So by leaving us, he robbed himself of a potential professional future. The dude won't even play overseas now, and he's completely gotten what he deserved
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757hoyafan
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Post by 757hoyafan on Dec 2, 2010 11:08:10 GMT -5
I would take Vee over Jeremiah on O or D any day of the week and twice on Sunday.[/quote]
LOL.. I love Vee, but to imply his "D" is better than baby doc is crazy..
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joey0403p
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Post by joey0403p on Dec 2, 2010 11:45:21 GMT -5
baby doc was an exceptional defensive player - yet i cringed anytime he was on the floor because we were playing 4 on 5 on offense.
i wished him well when he left - but then he trashed the program...i just can't let that go. its fine if you don't like it here - g town / jt iii / princeton offense isn't for everyone. that is fine - i get it. but there is no reason to trash the program.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Dec 2, 2010 11:46:44 GMT -5
Agree with the notion that we would have benefitted by having Jeremiah around last year, but do not think he would have played much more than the 18 to 20 minutes a game he got as sophomore. In addition to our guards needing to embrace the system in order to have success here, they also have to have the ability to shoot and hit the open shot. Jeremiah did neither and as such would only be used on an as needed basis.
Vee in my mind has much more upside with georgetown evidenced by his team leading 3 point fg percentage.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 2, 2010 11:55:33 GMT -5
Jeremiah didn't really have an issue with the system. He just thought he did. The guy has always thought -- and still thinks -- that he's an offensive beast (or at least competent). He blames the system, the staff, and seemingly everything except he can't shoot.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Dec 2, 2010 12:07:13 GMT -5
Baby Doc looked marginal last night in the Indiana loss. So he has improved under Crean...
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Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Dec 2, 2010 13:09:54 GMT -5
It was so funny this preseason hearing an ESPN talking head talking about how he got a lot of run last year and wasn't effective so has now embraced his role as coming off the bench as a defensive stopper for crean. Lol right back to where he was at Georgetown. The grass isn't always greener. So the move got him no where except he spent an extra year to get a degree from indiana instead of georgetown. Great life choices.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Dec 2, 2010 13:27:46 GMT -5
Jeremiah didn't really have an issue with the system. He just thought he did. The guy has always thought -- and still thinks -- that he's an offensive beast (or at least competent). He blames the system, the staff, and seemingly everything except he can't shoot. I'm not so sure I agree with that SF. the second part, yes.. I agree. But he was not able to function even adequately at the offensive end -- not just because he couldn't shoot -- but because he truly did not understand the offense. To use another phrase, he just "didn't get it". I do agree with the comment he would not have gotten more than 20 minutes last year, but that would have been quite a LOT and could have helped he performance of each of our three guards and the entire team by: 1. Giving those guys regular breaks throughout the games 2. Cooling off opposing guards who were giving us a really tough time. But... he's gone. His situation has not improved. And our guys are looking better and better.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 2, 2010 13:58:04 GMT -5
Actually, I disagree, Saxa. I thought he ran the offense fine. He was a pretty good passer and I never remember him being in the wrong spot. He just couldn't hit the side of a barn in any situation.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Dec 2, 2010 14:34:02 GMT -5
Actually, I disagree, Saxa. I thought he ran the offense fine. He was a pretty good passer and I never remember him being in the wrong spot. He just couldn't hit the side of a barn in any situation. Though he was quite proficient at hitting the side of a backboard
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 2, 2010 16:13:58 GMT -5
Senior Rivers is averaging 19.6 mpg in 7 games so far. He has attempted 4 shots and made 3. Indiana's offensive system is helping his numbers.
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hoyaboy1
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Post by hoyaboy1 on Dec 2, 2010 17:52:40 GMT -5
Actually, I disagree, Saxa. I thought he ran the offense fine. He was a pretty good passer and I never remember him being in the wrong spot. He just couldn't hit the side of a barn in any situation. I don't think he was a good passer, and his A/TO ratio certainly doesn't bear it out. I have higher standards for a guard running the offense than (usually) making a successful 5 foot pass. He was good at needless spins though.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 2, 2010 19:39:22 GMT -5
Nah, Jeremiah had pretty good vision - he just wasn't in a lot of positions to get assists. He did have a turnover bug, though, but that's 90% of our guards. He had a pretty good handle.
It's just hard to be a good offensive player when no one has to guard you outside of a couple of feet, if that.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Dec 2, 2010 20:00:17 GMT -5
I agree with boy1 here. I don't think Jeremiah was a "pretty good passer". He may have good vision, but not execution. He mostly passed to the sides and around the perimeter. For example, in our offense, a guard who is a pretty good passer and stands 6'5" should be able to consistently feed the post or pass to cutters. He was jittery and hesitant, at best, and mostly passed around the perimeter. Those teams could have used the entry passes to feed the post. Remember the calls around here for someone to feed the post? He would have been the perfect option.
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