calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,351
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Post by calhoya on Mar 19, 2010 8:12:37 GMT -5
Like a moth attracted to the light, I couldn't help but come to this Board this morning knowing that the extremes would be well-represented. It's incredible to watch the mood swings here from week to week as the team and the coach are either condemned or annointed. How about accepting the ugly loss for what it was-- the final act in an erratic season.
FACT: JT III is not a horrible coach or a great coach--he is a very good coach and he is still learning. He showed this year the ability to adapt the offense to allow for much more uptempo play that fits the talents of his kids. He needs to show the same flexibility in employing defenses--like full court pressure. However, that will take a much deeper team.
FICTION: JT III cannot recruit. Of course he can recruit, but that does not mean that he should not make changes. His problem appears to be more his ability to recruit depth and retain it. We have 5 top notch players on this team, 2 role players and little else. Clark is an emerging star--who had a bad night. Thompson is coming on strong and will be a major asset next year. The problem is depth, which could be addressed by moving to a longer bench and showing the kids that there is playing time beyond the 7th person. The greatest recruiting assistant in the world cannot bring in kids to a program unless they can be given a reasonable hope of significant playing time.
FACT: Chris Wright is a very talented player, who has taken too much criticism when things go poorly. Others somehow escape the trashing this kid gets. Where have all the critics been as Vaughn virtually disappeared this last month and Benimon proved to be what he is--a hard-working and undersized power forward with little offensive game. Expectations of Wright have been great since he arrived, but the effort is there, the talent is there and the Hoya fans should avoid creating a scapegoat for everything that goes wrong.
FICTION: This team underachieved. This team did very well for the league and the schedule. This team was inconsistent and paid the price. However, everyone here would have been okay with this performance--except for last night -- after last year's disaster. Given the limitations of the roster and the coaches inability to develop Henry Sims into a serviceable back-up, this team was destined to struggle against teams that can rebound. Against smaller teams, we did fine. Problems can be addressed if the coaches recognize them and show some flexibility in adapting the system.
FACT/FICTION: Monroe would benefit from another year in the program. Perhaps his play and maturity would continue to benefit from another year with the team. However, basketball-wise there will be several kids taken in the first 20 picks with much less talent and much less upside who will be making millions at this time next year to learn on an NBA bench. If he and his family need the money they should take the money and move on. The program should be thankful for his efforts and tout his development as yet another example of the ability to produce outstanding players and individuals.
FACT: We will all bitch all day today or for several days and then we will be jumping on to this board hourly hoping for some mid-level recruit to commit and "save" the program, while debating whether Monroe should go or stay and what changes need to be made to the coaching staff. It's been a long season and an even longer night, but let's not ruin it by devolving into personal attacks on the coach, the players or each other as we attempt to deal with a very disappointing and unexpected season ending loss.
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tjm62
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Post by tjm62 on Mar 19, 2010 8:16:00 GMT -5
Spot on.
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757hoyafan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by 757hoyafan on Mar 19, 2010 8:34:31 GMT -5
I wonder if JV's asthma affected his play towards the end. I noticed the fella huffing & puffing often towards the end of the season.
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tjm62
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by tjm62 on Mar 19, 2010 11:06:23 GMT -5
Bumping this to make sure a voice of reason is not lost in the scrum.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,351
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Post by calhoya on Mar 19, 2010 12:00:34 GMT -5
Thanks. I have been tolerating an Ohio alum at the office all morning--that is real pain.
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CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by CAHoya07 on Mar 19, 2010 12:06:02 GMT -5
Excellent, excellent post. Mirrors many of my thoughts on the team and program right now.
JT3 tweaked the offense this year, and it worked - we played quicker and scored more in transition. However, when you run more, you get tired more quickly, so depth is more important.
I absolutely concur that we need to develop some sort of full court press on D. We'll never be a trapping, pressing team, but we need to know how to use it when we're in a tight spot. We found ourselves in tight spots often this year. When you're down 12 with 4 minutes left, you need to press.
While they will be forever remembered as the schizophrenic 2009-10 Hoyas, I still love this team. While it was a bitter and abrupt ending, this was a fun year, and I feel a lot better now than a year ago. Here is my quote about expectations at the beginning of the season:
The first two statements still stand. This season was not a "true" success to me, but I am not overly disappointed. It was just much more up and down than I thought, and in no way did I think it would be possible for a team that was 8th in the Big East regular season to get a 3-seed. Even though we came two points short, that 2010 Revenge Tour to the Big East Championship game was something special.
I feel this team is more talented and athletic than the Green-Hibbert teams, and might have a higher ceiling, but they don't have "it" yet, whatever that "it" is that led us to the Final Four in 2007. But the story's not closed on this cast of characters yet. Austin, Chris, and hopefully (knock on wood) Greg will be back next year with something to prove.
However, before 2009-10, I was pessimistic about the 2010-11 season if Greg were to leave. I'm less so now, because Austin and Chris showed me so much this year. At the very least, we will have them back (knock on wood, you never know) as seniors to lead this team. No matter what happens with Greg, with Austin and Chris, a quiet off-season in terms of transfers, a strong supporting cast, and an impressive freshman crew coming in, I think we can improve on this year, be a little more consistent, and go a little farther.
Finally, I think many of our fans got spoiled by our successes 2006-08. We make it to a Final Four, and we expect it to be like the 1980's all over again. It's not. It takes time to build - Pops built the success of the 1980's Hoyas over most of the 1970's. Sometimes you take a few steps backward after taking big strides forward. Our program is in as good of a position to succeed as it has been in a long time. For that, I am happy.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by calhoya on Mar 19, 2010 12:16:17 GMT -5
What many people forget after a fiasco like last night is that the defense was strong most of the year, but it is not a defense that will enable the team to come from behind late in the game. I totally agree with you that the use of a full court pressure defense would have to be judicious, but it is not even a possibility when the same 5-6 players have already logged 30+ minutes, particularly when our guards are having to work hard against pressure.
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cnyhoya
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
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Post by cnyhoya on Mar 19, 2010 12:19:32 GMT -5
Excellent, excellent post. Mirrors many of my thoughts on the team and program right now. JT3 tweaked the offense this year, and it worked - we played quicker and scored more in transition. However, when you run more, you get tired more quickly, so depth is more important. Finally, I think many of our fans got spoiled by our successes 2006-08. We make it to a Final Four, and we expect it to be like the 1980's all over again. It's not. It takes time to build - Pops built the success of the 1980's Hoyas over most of the 1970's. Sometimes you take a few steps backward after taking big strides forward. Our program is in as good of a position to succeed as it has been in a long time. For that, I am happy. I don't completely buy the idea of "building a team takes time" so be happy with small steps. It is easily possible to build a team very quickly in college basketball. I don't mean it's easy, but I don't think time is really the issue here. The key is to make the most of your chances, and win while you can. In that sense, anyone associated with this team I am sure is disappointed we didn't at least make the Sweet 16. We were clearly good enough for that.
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Post by afalcon10 on Mar 19, 2010 12:58:54 GMT -5
FICTION: This team underachieved.
are you serious?
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 6,079
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Post by sleepy on Mar 19, 2010 13:35:58 GMT -5
FICTION: This team underachieved. This team did very well for the league and the schedule. This team was inconsistent and paid the price. However, everyone here would have been okay with this performance--except for last night -- after last year's disaster. Given the limitations of the roster and the coaches inability to develop Henry Sims into a serviceable back-up, this team was destined to struggle against teams that can rebound. Against smaller teams, we did fine. Problems can be addressed if the coaches recognize them and show some flexibility in adapting the system.
Fact this team underacieved talent ability experience at a minimum this is a sweet sixteen team and at times could be considered a final four contender we all saw them play at the top of their game. I'm sure the staff and the players are sitting back and DC right now saying yea we really were not that good i'm happy with what we accomplished . I'm quite certain they are alittle more upset about how it ended than some of the people on this board. Then Calhoya you must not have been watching for the last 5 months the same team i was. Yo say the defense was strong all year. This team could not guard the dribble drive alyear could not play a simple 2/3 zone the coach gave up on them playing the matchup zone which has been their signature defense in 4of his 6 years. yes they played about 15 min of solid defense against a team that can't score in WV last saturday, but the downfall of this team has been D since november. No wonder you don't think they underachieved what were you watching.
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superan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by superan on Mar 19, 2010 13:43:44 GMT -5
Great post. I was beginning to get sick of HoyaTalk with some of the other posts.
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hifigator
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by hifigator on Mar 19, 2010 13:50:40 GMT -5
FICTION: This team underachieved. This team did very well for the league and the schedule. This team was inconsistent and paid the price. However, everyone here would have been okay with this performance--except for last night -- after last year's disaster. Given the limitations of the roster and the coaches inability to develop Henry Sims into a serviceable back-up, this team was destined to struggle against teams that can rebound. Against smaller teams, we did fine. Problems can be addressed if the coaches recognize them and show some flexibility in adapting the system. Fact this team underacieved talent ability experience at a minimum this is a sweet sixteen team and at times could be considered a final four contender we all saw them play at the top of their game. I'm sure the staff and the players are sitting back and DC right now saying yea we really were not that good i'm happy with what we accomplished . I'm quite certain they are alittle more upset about how it ended than some of the people on this board. Then Calhoya you must not have been watching for the last 5 months the same team i was. Yo say the defense was strong all year. This team could not guard the dribble drive alyear could not play a simple 2/3 zone the coach gave up on them playing the matchup zone which has been their signature defense in 4of his 6 years. yes they played about 15 min of solid defense against a team that can't score in WV last saturday, but the downfall of this team has been D since november. No wonder you don't think they underachieved what were you watching. I disagree, but I see your point. Like I said in the other thread, it depends on your definition of underachieve. As a whole, I don't think you would use that term on the season. But the 1 and done in the dance was certainly an underachievement.
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CAHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,598
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Post by CAHoya07 on Mar 19, 2010 14:08:53 GMT -5
Excellent, excellent post. Mirrors many of my thoughts on the team and program right now. JT3 tweaked the offense this year, and it worked - we played quicker and scored more in transition. However, when you run more, you get tired more quickly, so depth is more important. Finally, I think many of our fans got spoiled by our successes 2006-08. We make it to a Final Four, and we expect it to be like the 1980's all over again. It's not. It takes time to build - Pops built the success of the 1980's Hoyas over most of the 1970's. Sometimes you take a few steps backward after taking big strides forward. Our program is in as good of a position to succeed as it has been in a long time. For that, I am happy. I don't completely buy the idea of "building a team takes time" so be happy with small steps. It is easily possible to build a team very quickly in college basketball. I don't mean it's easy, but I don't think time is really the issue here. The key is to make the most of your chances, and win while you can. In that sense, anyone associated with this team I am sure is disappointed we didn't at least make the Sweet 16. We were clearly good enough for that. I think when you say team, I mean program... it's a big difference. I think some people's expectations are that we should contend for a national title every year, as we more or less did in the 80's. It's true, you can build a good team very quickly in college basketball, which gives me hope every year heading into the season. But building a program that produces those teams year in and year out is much more difficult to do. I'm as disappointed as anybody in yesterday's result, and yes, with the talent on the team, anything less than a Sweet 16 was at least a little disappointing. But this was not nearly as disappointing as last year, and I think some people are going overboard, as expected. Which is why a post like that from my fellow Californian Hoya is somewhat refreshing.
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calhoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,351
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Post by calhoya on Mar 19, 2010 14:13:20 GMT -5
Sleepy, I don't disagree that the team underachieved in the Tournament, but like hifigator I cannot say that they underachieved all year. I guess it is a matter of expectations. I look at this team as being very incomplete. Yes, they have some very talented players, but also some major holes and some real limitations. I never bought into the Vaughn/Benimon hype. In my mind Vaughn is a back-up on an elite team and Benimon is in a learning mode watching from the bench. Clark is a sophomore, Monroe a sophomore and Thompson a freshman. They played the hardest schedule in the nation in the toughest conference (I think?) and they had some hiccups along the way. But your expectations must have been much higher than mine for the season they had. Again, no question that the NCAA tournament was a complete fiasco.
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Post by grokamok on Mar 20, 2010 12:52:13 GMT -5
Generally with af & sleepy on the subject of underachieving. Plenty more could be said, but I don't think it's necessary. Cal has good points on the rest.
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Post by afalcon10 on Mar 20, 2010 13:38:04 GMT -5
Same - good pts but we definately did underacheive. Have you seen our roster?
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skyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,496
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Post by skyhoya on Mar 20, 2010 21:25:45 GMT -5
yeh, I look at our roster, only one true hamburger- Chris, the rest have no passion. we have a few division II players scattered through out. We played three on five most of the season.
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Post by afalcon10 on Mar 20, 2010 21:32:06 GMT -5
we have mcdonalds all amearicans all over the place. its the coaches fault they have no passion! thats my pt!
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tashoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 12,304
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Post by tashoya on Mar 20, 2010 22:28:09 GMT -5
we have mcdonalds all amearicans all over the place. its the coaches fault they have no passion! thats my pt! Because you know all of the guys personally and, specifically, how they feel about winning and losing. Additionally, passion is clearly something that is easily taught. Next time you see a girl that your best friend is not at all attracted to, see if you can convince him to fall in love with her on the spot or over the next couple of months. Sounds easy enough right? Your premise is flawed or, at the least, uniformed. And your solution to your perceived "problem" borders on the impossible. You can't teach fully formed people to care about something they don't care about. The only thing worse than you thinking that that's possible is your questioning the passion of the guys. You have NO CLUE AT ALL how the guys feel.
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krey23
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by krey23 on Mar 20, 2010 22:31:36 GMT -5
Yes. The team doesn't care at all. That's why players were in tears, didn't leave their houses the next day, and were completely devastated. Because they don't care. They must be upset they couldn't stay in Providence to see the sights.
Give it a rest falcon, we got your point after the first 50 mindless posts
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