hoyarooter
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 10,198
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Post by hoyarooter on Feb 18, 2005 18:22:07 GMT -5
Well, let's see....
There's no indication in the article that NMSU has expressed the slightest interest in Esh. It appears he just popped up and said, "Hey, NMSU, here I am!" That's certainly his prerogative.
NMSU is 5-20 this season. Therefore, Esh couldn't do much to make them worse. I haven't peaked at their schedule, but I'm sure if Esh can find spots for Elon, University of New Mexico at Baltimore County, Santa Fe State and Laramie Junior College, he'll be well on his way to improving on that record. If there's one thing Esh excels at, it's scheduling from the RPI bottom 20.
I'm sure he has some wonderful references to pass along to NMSU for their consideration. If not, I'll bet that dose, Van and Elvado would be willing to volunteer.
All kidding aside, I hope he gets this job. He obviously has the coaching jones, so I hope he is able to get back into it. Even though he made many of us miserable for years, I'm happy to turn the other cheek - so much so that I'm considering changing my moniker to eshrooter.
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Post by JohnJacquesLayup on Feb 18, 2005 18:23:57 GMT -5
Another cathartic Esh moment: Turning down the NIT invitation Just another reason I can't become one of the people on this board who speak so highly of him now that he's out of our hair. A tiny fraction of these positive sentiments would have been expressed if we were still continuing our massive conference losing streak. It's artificial. FromTheBeginning: Since it's clear you were kind of quoting me, it should be understood that I'm not playing both sides of the street. My ambivalence regarding the rest of his career is doing exactly what you want: to just let it go.
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angus
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 188
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Post by angus on Feb 18, 2005 18:37:38 GMT -5
Can someone tell me why this isn't a good situation for NMSU or Esh? In his five years as head coach Esh averaged 19-13, 7-9 had two NITs (including a final), and a Sweet 16 run. Now that may not "wow" the crowd on this board but if that guy applied for a job and you were an AD in the Sun Belt, you have to take a look at him. We're talking about a mediocre Big Six coach, which is a nice find for a Sun Belt school that's 5-20 this year. Second, Esh wants to coach and he's still pretty young (48 or so). This is exactly what he should have done 10 years ago if he wanted a chance to succeed at Georgetown. If he can go to a mid-major and get some experience without the spotlight on him, it will be good for him. I hope he succeeds. This is a good move for a guy like Esherick and for NMSU. A bad move would be taking someone with Esh's resume and signing him to a million-dollar deal to coach a once great Big Ten school like Michigan. Or taking a mediocre but shamed coach to your dying school in a dying conference like Southern Miss. _______________________ Giga, I'll take a stab. The one clear, unequivocal asset Esh has on his resume is that his players go to class and graduate. It appears that he brings very little else to the table. Very few players improve under his tutelage. His offensive sets are disorganized and predictable. His players don't seem to care for him too much. He seemingly lacks command and poise. Given that resume, I am surprised that he is interested in a school that does not purport to be an academic powerhouse. Conversely, I am surprised that NM State would be interested in Esh (perhaps they are not; we have only heard one side of the story). Were Esh to serve as an D-I coach in the future, his best fit would seem to be a lower-tier basketball school that values education first (Patriot League or Ivy, for example). Whatever the case may be, I wish he would not offer comments to the media. Every time he opens his mouth, the value of my education reduces exponentially.
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prhoya
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
Posts: 23,267
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Post by prhoya on Feb 18, 2005 18:37:55 GMT -5
"I'd be a heck of a coach for them," sounds like good ole Eshrick. His 103-74 record is a joke (sorry if this is a repeat), since 14 to 16 games each season were agains the Cup Cake City Colleges (i.e., Elon, etc...) of the NCAA.
Yet, he harps his record around with his resume. I bet NMS can become a .500-plus team in one season with Eshrick at the helm and here's the formula: schedule all out-of-conference games with the bottom RPI teams!
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 18, 2005 18:46:28 GMT -5
I'll throw this out there because I am curious...
Who would appear in the NCAA Tourney first? Esh at NMSU or Gary Waters at Rutgers.
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,912
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Post by Big Dog on Feb 18, 2005 18:54:48 GMT -5
I can't believe I missed this news today until just now.
I hope NMSU hires him, so we can all definitively understand just what a horrendous head basketball coach Craig Esherick is. On the court, you'd be hard pressed to find anybody worse.
Unfortunately, the odds we get that chance are slim and none after the idiotic way that Esh went about this. Wait, let me rethink that for a minute. Absent his boaShut upl pronouncement, his name would never have been considered for five seconds for this job, because no one in college basketball thinks that the guy is a good head coach. No one. The AD will probably make a few phone calls for background, have a nice chuckle, and pretend he never heard the name Craig Esherick.
At least that's what any sane AD would do. So instead, we won't see Mr. Esh coaching anywhere anytime soon. And just like they've done since I joined this board in 2000, Megafan and Gigafan will continute to delude themselves about the Esherick era. Some things never change.
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MEGAFAN
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 649
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Post by MEGAFAN on Feb 18, 2005 19:28:14 GMT -5
Did I delude myself in saying that we were a lock to get an at-large bid in '01 when many on this board were calling for Esh's head towards the end of that season, predicting we wouldn't get a bid?
Did I delude myself when I predicted we would make it to the Sweet 16 that year?
Did I delude myself when I stated that Ashanti Cook was the best guard this team has seen since Brunner?
Was I deluding myself when I stated that Esh was not a great game coach (having compalined about his decision with AP and Scruggs for some time), but acknowledged that he had some good qualities, such as our offense looking better than under the latter days of JT?
Did I delude myself when I said that the problem with Esh was that he had the arrogance of JT, but without the right to have it, and that our offense is somewhat improved, but that we lost that all-out in-your-face D, and that I would trade them any day?
Did I delude myself about Michael Sweetney improving every year as a Hoya (if you take blame, you gotta get credit too)?
Did I delude myself when I gave Esh the benefit of the doubt over armchair coaches here on this board?
Did I delude myself when I said Georgetown made a big mistake by extending Esh unnecessarily for so long, when they could have waited on more season?
Did I delude myself when I signed the petitions (one asking for Esherick to be fired) aimed at improving Georgetown basketball?
Did I delude myself when I stated that JT III was the best possible hire in the best possible of all universes, going on to state that it maintained the right amount of continuity to uphold Georgetown tradition, but was simultaneously a refreshing move, given that it was technically from outside the program?
Revionist history is great. It's so easy to make blanket statements about things. But let's get one thing straight. I defended Esh (at times even against my best judgement) because I felt that the negativity on this board was getting out of hand, and because I am aware that players/coaches read this board and I don't want to insult people personally over a game. I also believe, in the words of Rocky...
"If you can change, and I can change... We can all change!"
I was willing to give a man who dedicated 25 years of his life to Georgetown a chance. Again, I don't think that this necessitated signing him for so long, or not expecting results. But you all must admit that given the state of the program at the time, after a couple of years, it looked like things were back on track. For all of his shortcomings, some on the court, Esh was recruiting solidly, and poised to do something special with Sweets and Bras. Of course, things turned South, but I advocated giving Esh until the end of the next season when we went to the NIT finals, and until the end of Sweets career if we went back to the NCAA's.
Everyone says I am a blind optimist, Esh appologist, and what not, but I think I'm just as close to objective as many of you Georgetown detractors are/were negative. Now, in spite of my frequent journeys to MEGAFANLAND, I resent getting labeled one way, just because I'm don't fall subject to groupthink.
With all that said, let's forget about this debate, agree that I'm right (just kidding, agree to disagree), and move forward. ALL HAIL JT III!
LET'S GO HOYAS!!! SINK ST. JOHN'S!
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Post by michiganhoya on Feb 18, 2005 20:29:52 GMT -5
MEGAFAN: Yes, you are delusional.
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,912
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Post by Big Dog on Feb 18, 2005 20:31:29 GMT -5
<html> I'll take these one at a time.
<i>Did I delude myself in saying that we were a lock to get an at-large bid in '01 when many on this board were calling for Esh's head towards the end of that season, predicting we wouldn't get a bid?</i>
I don't remember anybody being dumb enough to think we weren't getting an at-large bid at the end of 2001. Name me one person who thought, towards the end of that season, that we weren't getting it. No one of sound mind would have had us out after we beat the crap out of the MEAC on pace to our long undefeated start.
<i>Did I delude myself when I predicted we would make it to the Sweet 16 that year?</i>
If you knew Hampton was going to beat Iowa State, I commend you.
<i>Did I delude myself when I stated that Ashanti Cook was the best guard this team has seen since Brunner? </i>
Does anyone even agree with this? Why is Kenny Brunner even in the discussion? This IS delusion.
<i>Was I deluding myself when I stated that Esh was not a great game coach (having compalined about his decision with AP and Scruggs for some time), but acknowledged that he had some good qualities, such as our offense looking better than under the latter days of JT?</i>
Esh had no good quaities related to the qualify of play on the floor. None. To say that the offense looked better than under JT is the most underhanded compliment one could give. So yes, I would say you were deluding yourself.
<i>Did I delude myself when I said that the problem with Esh was that he had the arrogance of JT, but without the right to have it, and that our offense is somewhat improved, but that we lost that all-out in-your-face D, and that I would trade them any day?</i>
I don't understand. You want credit for taking a position that every single person on this board would agree with? I see, so now you get points for making occasional, sensible statements. Talk about setting a low bar.
<i>Did I delude myself about Michael Sweetney improving every year as a Hoya (if you take blame, you gotta get credit too)?</i>
Everybody saw this my friend, everybody. Again, don't set the bar so low as to expect props for noticing the patently obvious.
<i>Did I delude myself when I gave Esh the benefit of the doubt over armchair coaches here on this board?</i>
Yes. Giving Esh the benefit of the doubt four years after he'd been hired was lunacy. The man cannot coach, and now we are apparently finding out that he's also a serious loose cannon and an egomaniac. There goes your "nice guy" theory.
<i>Did I delude myself when I said Georgetown made a big mistake by extending Esh unnecessarily for so long, when they could have waited on more season? </i>
Again, congratulations on pointing out the patently obvious.
<i>Did I delude myself when I signed the petitions (one asking for Esherick to be fired) aimed at improving Georgetown basketball?</i>
Same as above.
<i>Did I delude myself when I stated that JT III was the best possible hire in the best possible of all universes, going on to state that it maintained the right amount of continuity to uphold Georgetown tradition, but was simultaneously a refreshing move, given that it was technically from outside the program?</i>
Yes, now that I think about it, you alone unequivocally supported this hiring. Frankly, you deserve a significant amount of respect for being the only person who thought hiring JTIII was a good idea.
<i>I defended Esh (at times even against my best judgement) because I felt that the negativity on this board was getting out of hand, and because I am aware that players/coaches read this board and I don't want to insult people personally over a game. </i>
This is the kind of stuff that I find so maddening. You would prefer a neutered-down message board that heaps praise on mediocrity, just so long as nobody's feelings get hurt. Such an uninteresting world. Everyone here is an adult. If the words that "Big Dog" typed were keeping Craig Esherick up at night or adversely affecting the decisions of recruits to come here, then all society as we know it is lost. </html> #nosmileys
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,419
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Post by the_way on Feb 18, 2005 20:38:18 GMT -5
Did I delude myself when I signed the petitions (one asking for Esherick to be fired) aimed at improving Georgetown basketball?
I keep seeing this slip of the toungue from many on this board about this petition was to get him fired, and then people call me crazy when I don't believe their explanations saying it wasn't designed to get him fired. Anyway. I support Esh 100 %. I hope he gets the job, or is involved in D1 level basketball as a coach. For people to say he drove this program into the ground that was once elite, I beg to differ. G'town was struggling mightily with JT2 at the helm during his last 1 and a half years of his coaching. Esh had his flaws, a lot as head coach. However, although he lacked X's and O's, developing players, he could recruit and had an eye for talent. This year's team is not doing bad with players he recruited other than Wallace. However, W's are what counts in coaching and he did not do enough of that. Maybe that should be his role, an assistant coach. Or maybe he has learned from his mistakes. I simply don't know. I just sense that a lot of people on this board don't like Esh period. You can tell in their tone when they post and in their jokes. Everything Esh does is depicted negatively, he can do no right in their eyes. Its like Esh did something to them personally. They call him arrogant. Well, I think the people who do that are arrogant themselves, particularly if they go to great lengths to get a person fired. That is beyond arrogance, it is lack of character. Much respect to you Esh. Always a Hoya, I wish you nothing but the best.
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Post by JohnJacquesLayup on Feb 18, 2005 21:27:25 GMT -5
They call him arrogant. Well, I think the people who do that are arrogant themselves, particularly if they go to great lengths to get a person fired. That is beyond arrogance, it is lack of character. Observing a character flaw means that the observer also contains that same flaw? Not sure I follow. And by that logic we can say YOU are arrogant for pointing out that we are arrogant for thinking Esh was arrogant! :
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,737
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 18, 2005 21:35:01 GMT -5
At some point, the Georgetown fan base has to come to terms with Craig Esherick and stop projecting all the program's sins upon him. By reading some of these posts (and that's without the real heavy artillery from a Dose, a Prov, or a Van) you would think there are lots of people who would wish Craig Esherick was a pariah, endlessly wandering the streets as the hoia polloi pass by.
We ought to know better.
The word "irrelevant" was borrowed from this board and spread by columnists nationwide. But it wasn't Craig Esherick that made Georgetown irrelevant. Georgetown made Georgetown irrelevant.
The benign institutional neglect of men's basketball in the 1990's brought Georgetown to 2003-04. It was often easier to extol the good old days than plan for the new ones. And so it was with Craig Esherick, who brought a healthy dose of hubris when confronted with a program and record that was flattening out and opted to retreat rather than move forward.
Of course, Georgetrown was never truly irrelevant. Irrelevant is UMBC, Radford, Wright State, Stetson, Denver, Pan American-- places on the Division I map which will never make an impact. But if not irrelevant, Georgetown had become indifferent--its administration, its alumni, its students. As such, Craig was the symbol of this. Had John Jr. been sitting in the chair in 2003, a lot of the discontent would have been upon him, too.
Instead of enbracing change, Craig seemed to recoil from it. It was easier for him to fall back on how he was a key part of a NCAA title, three Final Fours and how he was the top recruiter for most of Georgetown' stars (which, in fact, he was) than try to rebuild beyond the Thompson formula.
Digger Phelps had a great point on this during last week's game. Joey Meyer, he said could have been a better coach at DePaul but never gained experience outside the DePaul environment. Better to have had Meyer get 3-4 years elsewhere and come back to DU than to sit on the bench. That's what befell Esherick, and, no surprise, it's what is now staring Johnny Dawkins straight between the eyes.
To the point above that Henry Hyde and Bill Clinton weren't "family", well, they were only alumni. To be a member of a team and a program so tight as Georgetown is a stronger bond. And that's why, with few exceptions, the ties are pretty strong. When AI makes the All-Star Game or Ron Blaylock closes a nine-figure deal, the family takes pride in it. When a Victor Page ends up in a hospital, the family is concerned. And for the most part when a player falls short in some endeavor, the family (and its fans) remain supportive. No one belittled Horace Broadnax for his coaching record at Bethune Cookman. Ronny Thompson applied for at least five head coaching jobs in four years and wasn't a finalist in any of them. If it's the sixth or sixteenth interview that lands him a HC job, the family stays supportive. You don't have to like Craig Esherick, but he's as much a part of Hoya basketball as anyone and frankly deserves the respect to say that if he wants to earn a living in coaching, that he have the ability to do so.
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GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,083
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Post by GUHoya07 on Feb 18, 2005 21:45:41 GMT -5
I keep seeing this slip of the toungue from many on this board about this petition was to get him fired, and then people call me crazy when I don't believe their explanations saying it wasn't designed to get him fired. What are you talking about? There were different petitions/movements that had different aims!!! The Save The Hoyas petition (which I had nothing to do with but did sign) clearly called for Esh to be fired. The rally and everything that we were trying to accomplish with it had nothing to do with firing Esh. Stop the insanity and get your facts straight.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,419
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Post by the_way on Feb 18, 2005 21:46:18 GMT -5
At some point, the Georgetown fan base has to come to terms with Craig Esherick and stop projecting all the program's sins upon him. By reading some of these posts (and that's without the real heavy artillery from a Dose, a Prov, or a Van) you would think there are lots of people who would wish Craig Esherick was a pariah, endlessly wandering the streets as the hoia polloi pass by. We ought to know better. The word "irrelevant" was borrowed from this board and spread by columnists nationwide. But it wasn't Craig Esherick that made Georgetown irrelevant. Georgetown made Georgetown irrelevant. The benign institutional neglect of men's basketball in the 1990's brought Georgetown to 2003-04. It was often easier to extol the good old days than plan for the new ones. And so it was with Craig Esherick, who brought a healthy dose of hubris when confronted with a program and record that was flattening out and opted to retreat rather than move forward. Of course, Georgetrown was never truly irrelevant. Irrelevant is UMBC, Radford, Wright State, Stetson, Denver, Pan American-- places on the Division I map which will never make an impact. But if not irrelevant, Georgetown had become indifferent--its administration, its alumni, its students. As such, Craig was the symbol of this. Had John Jr. been sitting in the chair in 2003, a lot of the discontent would have been upon him, too. Instead of enbracing change, Craig seemed to recoil from it. It was easier for him to fall back on how he was a key part of a NCAA title, three Final Fours and how he was the top recruiter for most of Georgetown' stars (which, in fact, he was) than try to rebuild beyond the Thompson formula. Digger Phelps had a great point on this during last week's game. Joey Meyer, he said could have been a better coach at DePaul but never gained experience outside the DePaul environment. Better to have had Meyer get 3-4 years elsewhere and come back to DU than to sit on the bench. That's what befell Esherick, and, no surprise, it's what is now staring Johnny Dawkins straight between the eyes. To the point above that Henry Hyde and Bill Clinton weren't "family", well, they were only alumni. To be a member of a team and a program so tight as Georgetown is a stronger bond. And that's why, with few exceptions, the ties are pretty strong. When AI makes the All-Star Game or Ron Blaylock closes a nine-figure deal, the family takes pride in it. When a Victor Page ends up in a hospital, the family is concerned. And for the most part when a player falls short in some endeavor, the family (and its fans) remain supportive. No one belittled Horace Broadnax for his coaching record at Bethune Cookman. Ronny Thompson applied for at least five head coaching jobs in four years and wasn't a finalist in any of them. If it's the sixth or sixteenth interview that lands him a HC job, the family stays supportive. You don't have to like Craig Esherick, but he's as much a part of Hoya basketball as anyone and frankly deserves the respect to say that if he wants to earn a living in coaching, that he have the ability to do so. Amen, brotha. Amen!
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,419
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Post by the_way on Feb 18, 2005 21:48:08 GMT -5
What are you talking about? There were different petitions/movements that had different aims!!! The Save The Hoyas petition (which I had nothing to do with but did sign) clearly called for Esh to be fired. The rally and everything that we were trying to accomplish with it had nothing to do with firing Esh. Stop the insanity and get your facts straight. I'm not the one saying these things. You guys are, and the papers said it. Enough already. Its over.
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GUHoya07
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,083
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Post by GUHoya07 on Feb 18, 2005 21:54:09 GMT -5
I'm not the one saying these things. You guys are, and the papers said it. Enough already. Its over. The papers said what? I don't know what you're talking about but even if a paper said that the rally was to get Esh fired that doesn't mean it's true!!! Not everything written in a newspaper is always accurate and stuff gets written that is blatantly false. Twist this however you want if it makes you happy, because you apparently can't accept the fact that the rally was not intended to get Esh fired. Talking to you is more frustrating than trying to communicate with a brick wall.
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Big Dog
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,912
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Post by Big Dog on Feb 18, 2005 21:56:37 GMT -5
All of the discussion about the institutional rot of Georgetown basketball after 1990 is fine. But the fact remains that Coach E was a bad basketball coach. That doesn't make him a bad person. He is probably egotistical. That puts him in the same category as maybe 75% of all Georgetown alumni. But you guys whose stomachs turn at a little negativity need to calm down a little bit. Nobody wants to see Esh destitute in a ditch somewhere, at least I don't. But this isn't a talk board about nice guys, or politeness, or character. Its a talk board about basketball. If I'm discussing somebody's merits, its not the merits of their existence, its the merits of their ability to improve the Georgetown basketball team. Having consistently failed to do that, Esh warrants criticism. If he gets another job (which he won't), then great. If he succeeds someplace else (which he won't), great for him. I just wouldn't want to be an NMSU fan right now.
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Post by Fan Of The Game on Feb 18, 2005 22:25:55 GMT -5
The benign institutional neglect of men's basketball in the 1990's brought Georgetown to 2003-04. I'm just thankful the institution woke up and in 2004 and made a change in the right direction. There's a lot more that needs to be done institutional wise, but changing the coach was a great start. DFW, you bring up a lot of good points. I think for those of us who wish to complain about Esherick, we should refer to him as "Coach Esherick". We need to separate the coach who offended many of us during his coaching tenure from our respect for him as a former Hoya player. As a former player and fellow alum, Esherick the man deserves our best wishes. I think Coach Esherick had a terrible attitude and was an ineffective coach. But I wish Craig Esherick good luck in all his future endeavors.
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DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,737
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 18, 2005 22:28:11 GMT -5
Just posted on the front page: Comcast SportsNite reports Esherick is also in the mix for the coaching vacancy at Tulsa.
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Joe Hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
You're watching Sports Night on CSC, so stick around.
Posts: 1,236
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Post by Joe Hoya on Feb 18, 2005 22:31:02 GMT -5
The papers said what? I don't know what you're talking about but even if a paper said that the rally was to get Esh fired that doesn't mean it's true!!! Not everything written in a newspaper is always accurate and stuff gets written that is blatantly false. Twist this however you want if it makes you happy, because you apparently can't accept the fact that the rally was not intended to get Esh fired. Talking to you is more frustrating than trying to communicate with a brick wall. I think his point is that all of you who say that firing the coach wasn't your goal also freely talk about signing petitions whose stated purpose was a coaching change. If everyone in the "no-fire" group was rooting for a change, it blurs the dividing line to the point where there is no difference. At least, that's the way it's perceived. And in things like this, perception is everything. You can admit/deny whatever you want about the intended purpose of petitions and rallies and whatnot, but how those things are perceived is infinitely more important than how they were intended.
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