NCHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by NCHoya on Dec 18, 2009 12:24:40 GMT -5
The problem for me is this is the same crap that has been written before. There is no original thought here. The system may deter top recruits, like we have never read that before. The news this year will be if the Hoyas duplicate last year's spiral. Unless that happens, he is taking one year out of context and trying to make it seem like a trend. Regardless, our recruits for 2010 look damn solid, so again this is written a little presumptuously.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 18, 2009 12:28:48 GMT -5
Truthfully, many people--more than 2-3- have wondered whether the Princeton system can attract top recruits consistently. Huh? I think Thompson has proven that he can recruit top level recruits consistently. There's constant handwringing about recruiting, but the results speak for themselves. How many classes does he need before we stop asking this question? I love Jon Wallace, but this is crazy talk. We're running more uptempo this year, but I know that watching the Duke game, the UNC game, the Pitt games that we utilize our athleticism fine. Fast breaking isn't the only way to utilize athleticism, and frankly it can be wildly overrated. I'd also argue that it's great to run against teams that suck, because you always have an advantage, but as you play better teams, I'd rather it not come down to athleticism.
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Post by Coast2CoastHoya on Dec 18, 2009 13:33:39 GMT -5
Spot on except Roy isn't 7'4", Calipari gets kids by cheating and the Princeton offense teaches kids fundamentals that they'll need at the next level. Other than that, in the byline, it should have included the fact that not only did he play at ND but that ND sucks. Oh but Big Roy is 7'4''. He also shoots fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse. I don't think zH has been paying attention this season. Has he not seen how much more uptempo the Hoyas have been lately?
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Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 18, 2009 14:02:02 GMT -5
Listening to a former Notre Dame basketball player talk about basketball strategy is like, well, listening to a Notre Dame student talk about female anatomy.
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TBird41
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
"Roy! I Love All 7'2" of you Roy!"
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Post by TBird41 on Dec 18, 2009 14:35:09 GMT -5
Listening to a former Notre Dame basketball player talk about basketball strategy is like, well, listening to a Notre Dame student talk about female anatomy. Thread's over. Cambridge wins. ;D
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SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
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Post by SoCalHoya on Dec 18, 2009 14:50:20 GMT -5
Listening to a former Notre Dame basketball player talk about basketball strategy is like, well, listening to a Notre Dame student talk about female anatomy. Thread's over. Cambridge wins. ;D I just forwarded Cambridge's quote to a dozen friends of mine.
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Post by FrostbackHoya on Dec 18, 2009 14:51:14 GMT -5
Everybody feeling a little nervous that we may implode again, even as we reassure ourselves that it can't happen now that Summers is gone?
What's with the sensitivity? Our man Z says we imploded last year due to rebounding and turnovers, and it looks like we won't implode this year as we're better at getting and keeping the ball. Man, should we flame this guy OR WHAT?
Get a grip, guys.
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canissaxa
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Post by canissaxa on Dec 18, 2009 15:40:50 GMT -5
Lots of reasons to dislike this article, but I was surprised to see any collegiate level basketball player from any school cite rebounding margin as a serious statistic. (see this article for an explanation of how flawed the stat is: basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=829)
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GIGAFAN99
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Dec 18, 2009 17:37:02 GMT -5
The "analysis" like this always has one major flaw:
The widespread underestimation of how good Roy Hibbert and Jeff Green are as basketball players and how much that means.
The reason we got worse when those two graduated is because we actually got worse. I know, novel idea for ZH since Notre Dame's only NBA contribution in the last 5 years is the human Auerbach cigar Rob Kurz, but it actually hurts to lose that type of talent.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Dec 18, 2009 17:38:46 GMT -5
I don't mind the NYT coddling its readers into believing Georgetown isn't gonna be good this year. That'll make it so much sweeter when we rip through the BET.
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Dec 18, 2009 18:15:29 GMT -5
Youo guys are way too paranoid. It's actually a pretty good article and, to me, its main underlying point is that to play JT3's system successfully you need guards who can make more assists than turnovers. Now that's probably true in any system, but I don't think it's wrong. When was the last time a national publication was that complimentary about JWall?
If you're looking for really sophisticated analysis, you're not going to find it in the sports pages anywhere very often. This guy wasn't being critical so much as observing, and saying the jury's out on whether we'll come back strong this year. That's a fair question to pose.
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MCIGuy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Dec 18, 2009 18:37:46 GMT -5
If you're looking for really sophisticated analysis, you're not going to find it in the sports pages anywhere very often. This guy wasn't being critical so much as observing, and saying the jury's out on whether we'll come back strong this year. That's a fair question to pose. Is it a fair question? What's fair is Nova, Syracuse and West Virginia being just as much a question mark. Maybe they'll collapse during the Big East season. We don't know. The Hoyas had one bad season in five years and its as if they will have to keep being questioned about that one bad showing from now until mid January or early February. I know that one disappointment occurred last season but every new year represents a fresh start. People can question the Hoyas for more legitimate reasons than wondering if a repeat plunge is just around the corner. If the Hoyas lose to ODU at McD again will the media claim that's a good sign that the Hoyas are going back to the Final Four?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Dec 18, 2009 19:02:05 GMT -5
If you're looking for really sophisticated analysis, you're not going to find it in the sports pages anywhere very often. This guy wasn't being critical so much as observing, and saying the jury's out on whether we'll come back strong this year. That's a fair question to pose. Is it a fair question? What's fair is Nova, Syracuse and West Virginia being just as much a question mark. Maybe they'll collapse during the Big East season. We don't know. The Hoyas had one bad season in five years and its as if they will have to keep being questioned about that one bad showing from now until mid January or early February. I know that one disappointment occurred last season but every new year represents a fresh start. People can question the Hoyas for more legitimate reasons than wondering if a repeat plunge is just around the corner. If the Hoyas lose to ODU at McD again will the media claim that's a good sign that the Hoyas are going back to the Final Four? What he said. I don't think that was the underlying point at all. I think the underlying point was "careful young kids. is this really the system you want to be playing for?" Besides I see no reason to stick up for a stiff from South Bend. Pile on, I say. It's Christmas, after all!
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Dec 18, 2009 19:47:00 GMT -5
Plus it is just offensive for these simple-minded commentors to repeatedly suggest that athletic players can't shoot or pass and should never be expected to learn skills. When they says athletic they don't necessarily mean black but they do mean not white. I am waiting for someone to give an example of a white player who is too athletic for the offense. The offense does not stop anyone from driving. It sets up the opening or the mismatch for effective individual play.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Dec 18, 2009 20:14:20 GMT -5
The fact that this guy is writing about whether Georgetown can get back to their 2 BE championship caliber teams with better athletes than those championship teams had, is really hilarious. Obviously he wants to leave the impression that better athletes will rebel against the Princeton Offense ergo the down season last year. What he and a lot of other writers have failed to observe is that while the Princeton Offense got all the ink during the 2 BE championships and Final Four run, the real reason the Hoyas regained their championship teams was the revival of a suffocating defense. JT3's teams don't press fullcourt and harrass an opponant from start to finish like his dad's teams, but they play a suffocating halfcourt team defense. Every player must cover for a teammate that is being beat or has been beaten. The Hoyas of last year did not have less offensive talent than it has this year. Summers was a very good offensive player and Sapp was no slouch at offense either. Summers was not a good team defensive player and certainly not a good defensive rebounder. Freeman ,though game, could not guard the athletic 6'6-8" small forwards in the BE. When he would be on the verge of being beaten by his man Monroe would try to cover but that left Summers to rotate and cover Monroe's man and like I said he was not that good at it. The result was a much more porous defense than the 4 years prior. Yes, JT3 probably could have unleashed Sapp and Wright to run more like Wright and Clark are doing this year, but its hard to run when the other teanm is getting 2 and 3 offensive rebounds after 1/2 of their shots.
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Post by hoya00 on Dec 18, 2009 22:53:41 GMT -5
Amen, OldHoyafan. I explained these defensive deficiencies to many a casual Hoya fan last year, though never as comprehensively (yet concisely).
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calhoya
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Post by calhoya on Dec 19, 2009 9:55:50 GMT -5
SFHoya, I guess we have different timelines as what it takes to consistently prove someone can recruit elite level recruits. In my mind, JT III has not been here long enough to have a consistent track record with recruits--particularly since his first few yeaers were played with only a couple of his recruits. Additionally, my point was that with the "system," getting only elite level recruits may not be necessary for success. Also, while I did not intend to suggest that Wallace was the best player on the Final Four team, in my opinion he was arguably the one piece that did not have a suitable replacement on the team. Wallace's outside shooting opened everything up for the cuts and backdoor plays that others thrived on. Even Green--clearly the most talented player on that team-- had Ewing and Summers as capable backups when needed. Finally, who said up tempo=fast break? I have coached with and against some very good coaches, albeit at the high school level, and I don't know anyone who thinks up tempo can be defined just as fast break. It simply means a quicker pace. The Hoyas do not have to race up and down the court to play up tempo. It also does not mean launching threes after 7 seconds have been run off the clock. Up tempo means quicker ball movement-- the opposite of watching last year's team dribble around the arc while inside players watched before settling for a last second three as the shot clock ran down. Don't think that the Hoyas are just capitalizing on poor teams in preseason. Rewatch the Bytler and Washington games, particularly during the runs that the Hoyas made at the beginning of the second half. That is up tempo. Athleticism and an up tempo pace can force turnovers. See, Jason CLark. I would like to see this Hoya team use the full court press some in each game. I see progress and think that this team can be special--but if we go back to the slower, deliberate pace then we better all pray that we have consistent outside shooting because the Big East teams will sit back and clog the middle to take away the cuts.
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bmartin
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Post by bmartin on Dec 19, 2009 10:41:40 GMT -5
What offense does not need players to be able to shoot? It doesn't matter what offense you run, elite opponents will clog the middle and make you shoot jumpers. Isn't that what Georgetown did to UNC in 2007? Isn't that what Michigan State did to Kansas, Louisville and UConn last year?
Full court pressing will not eliminate the need for ball handling, passing, and shooting skills. It may run up impressive scores against low-majors, but it doesn't beat fundamentally-sound, well-coached teams with comparable athletes.
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hoyaalf
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I like what your doing very much. Why squirrel hate me?
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Post by hoyaalf on Dec 19, 2009 11:04:15 GMT -5
There's much good discussion here but it all sifts down to intense defense and high-percentage shooting.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Dec 19, 2009 13:59:29 GMT -5
Calhoya,
1. While you may have a different timeline, I find it suspect that apparently SIX straight classes with a Top 50 player -- and five of the six classes that ranked in the Top 25 -- is not enough to establish a "track record."
If we ran a dribble drive motion offense, would anyone be saying we didn't know if Thompson could recruit?
2. Jeff Green didn't have a suitable replacement. Roy Hibbert didn't, either. I'm not really sure it is worth arguing about
3. I think you are arguing my point on tempo. Of course, tempo is not just fastbreaking. But that's what the mainstream press seems to think, for one. More importantly, my point was that this year is not necessarily a change in the non-fastbreaking element of pace from prior years. The Duke game, the UNC game and plenty others where people play us man serve as an example of where we have played at a higher tempo.
I guess my point is that when we play well, it is really nothing different.
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