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Post by hoyaparents on Nov 10, 2009 13:29:28 GMT -5
RBHoya, prior to assuming the Presidency of Cincy, Nancy Zempher met with groups of alums from around the country to express her vision.
When the topic of Cincy joining the Big East was raised, many of us were negative. I told her that unless the university was prepared to make a commitment to athletics, we would go from top dogs of Conference USA to also rans in the Big East. Zempher made it clear that she understood the challenges at Cincy, and was committed to making the necessary investment.
She lived up to her statement in spades. The football facility was expanded, I understand that it will be going through another renovation shortly, an athletes village with training facilities was constructed, and the money just keeps flowing in. The basketball program is progressing, but still has a way to go.
The facilities are first class.
I graduated 40 years ago, this year a group of my classmates and frat brothers are planning a reunion trip to whatever bowl game the Bearcats play in. Many of us have not seen each other since graduation.
Athletics is a catalyst.
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derhoya
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 584
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Post by derhoya on Nov 10, 2009 14:42:58 GMT -5
first off, before you bombard the president of the Gridiron Club, realize he's a volunteer and can only do so much, so keep that in mind.
secondly, what's the time frame for the new bball practice facility in relation to the new science building that's being planned (who's first)? As subtly mentioned by others, i think the completion of the football/lax/mutli-everything will be in line with many of these projects. so if people want an idea, think sooner than later.
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Post by 98hoya on Nov 10, 2009 14:45:04 GMT -5
The stadium can be used for much more than just football and lax games, with its very central location on campus it should be the focal point for a lot of student oriented activities (Concerts, Intramural Sports, Maybe even graduation; although, I think it would be tough to justify moving this off Healy Lawn, etc). Beyond this, it is currently a very prominant eye sore in the middle of campus that makes the school look cheap - a small stadium (10k seating) permant structure it would be in my personal opinion be a huge upgrade to the beautification of the campus and can be used for so much more than just gamedays! EB, everything you say makes sense...which is just another reason why the MSF debacle is so frustrating. |
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Post by hoyahopeful on Nov 10, 2009 14:52:05 GMT -5
IMO we basically need a I-AA Brian Kelly. The facilities disadvantage is obvious, but it's something that I still think can be overcome by a strong coach that is a capable recruiter. Setting aside more money for aid in order to give a new coach a chance to bring in the right players is very important too. BINGO! At the risk of repeating some of my prior posts, the answer is simple...win. When Bernard Muir was hired he made his decision to replace the coach very late in the cycle. He ended up with 20 year assistant who was overwhelmed by the obstacles and, candidly, not very charismatic. Then this 20 year assistant had to build a staff even later in the cycle. And the reward was the worst four year won-lost record in Georgetown history and an AD who went MIA. I don't know Brian Kelly, but I'll bet he's a little like what I am about to describe. Georgetown needs to find a young, energetic, football saavy, whack job who will work 18 hours each day to build the program. Here's the pitch to recruit him: "We have terrible facilities and they won't get better until we win; we have an apathetic student body who won't get interested until we win; we have little money and we won't get a lot more until we win; but if you come here you will be spending the next several years working at freaking Georgetown University in a beautiful part of the most powerful city in the world.. Now if you can't walk into the living room of a bright young 18 year old football player and sell that, then you need not apply for this job." If this programs starts winning (and that simply means 5 or 6 wins), a lot of alumni (including football players from the past 8 or 10 years) will show up. Just look around at homecoming next season and you will see them there--but they are there to support the players, not the program. And these young men will have started to earn a few dollars and be able to start supporting this program. They just need to believe that there is a foundation...and that starts with a coach. Most of them know this staff and with a few exceptions it is this staff that keeps them from opening their checkbooks. Sure, all of the other stuff that has been mentioned matters. But there is only one change that by itself will make all the difference--that is winning. And I know there is a 28 year old assistant out there who is 3 years away from being hired by a successful program who would jump at accelerating his career by coming to Georgetown. And finding that guy will take a lot less time and less money than building a better "stadium". |
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kchoya
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Posts: 9,934
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Post by kchoya on Nov 10, 2009 15:23:05 GMT -5
IMO we basically need a I-AA Brian Kelly. The facilities disadvantage is obvious, but it's something that I still think can be overcome by a strong coach that is a capable recruiter. Setting aside more money for aid in order to give a new coach a chance to bring in the right players is very important too. I agree. Ideally, he'd be a younger coach, like in his later 20's or early 30's. He would be a coordinator at another FCS school, like a defensive coordinator at Johns Hopkins (as an example). Sure, he may start out slow, with a 4-5 or 5-4 season at the beginning, but by his 5th or 6th season, with good recruiting and coaching, he could be 8-3 or 9-2. If he was a defensive guy, with a good scheme, he might even be able to coach up the players and, say, get them to lead the country in total defense. A guy can dream... |
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Post by hoyaparents on Nov 10, 2009 15:41:09 GMT -5
RBHoya, when Brian Kelly was hired by Cincy the foundation was already in place. The first phase of the stadium renovation was complete, funding for the program was committed.
The young 28 year old with great aspirations for the future is not coming to GU under the circumstances you laid out for him. He would be better off being an assistant in an established program and working his way up the ranks. If he is truly any good, he knows that.
Any finally, Muir did not fire Benson because he wanted a change, there were other circumstances at play. Kevin Kelly was dealt a bad hand from day one, the timing could not have been worse.
I am not defending Coach Kelly, but as I have said in previous posts, throwing the coach under the bus is not addressing the underlying problem.
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Post by hoyaparents on Nov 10, 2009 15:58:32 GMT -5
derhoya, how many times have I heard that one, lay off, "he's only a volunteer." Okay then, wrong volunteer.
As I understand it, there are funding problems with the new Science Building, so that's not on the immediate horizon. I don't know what comes first, but my understanding is that MSF must be completed before the BB training facilities.
Does any one else have any info on this?
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Post by hoyahopeful on Nov 10, 2009 17:17:35 GMT -5
I am not defending Coach Kelly, but as I have said in previous posts, throwing the coach under the bus is not addressing the underlying problem. Frankly, the reason Benson was let go is not relevant. Regardless of the reason, he was let go late and when Muir began the search, all of the "goodies" (both head coaches and assistants) were about gone. I think everyone agrees that there are many "underlying problems", but those take a lot of time to repair. Hiring the right coach can happen in two months and if he brings the energy (I am assuming he will know football), he can make a far bigger difference and much faster than any other single change. This program is dying to find someone who fills up the room with confidence and optimism. The dirty little secret about Georgetown football in my opinion is that the talent as compared to the opposition is not nearly as poor as the performance. I am not talking about strategy here. The right leadership can change the program in one season. The "underlying problems" will seem far less important and will be solved sooner once there is the right kind of leadership. |
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eb59
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 152
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Post by eb59 on Nov 10, 2009 19:05:29 GMT -5
Does the GridIron Club ever have physical meetings for it's members? If not, why?
Do they have meeitngs with the AD? Are the minutes of these meetings published? If not, why?
Why does everything seem to be done in private - no one is going to buy into anything until there is transparancy!
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RBHoya
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,120
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Post by RBHoya on Nov 10, 2009 19:10:16 GMT -5
Agree with hopeful. The young 28 year old with great aspirations for the future is not coming to GU under the circumstances you laid out for him. He would be better off being an assistant in an established program and working his way up the ranks. If he is truly any good, he knows that. Well, this is certainly one school of thought but honestly I am not sure I agree, particularly if we scrape together the money together to pay this guy better than he'd be paid at an established program. There are a lot of football people who are of the "as long as the field is 100yds x 50 yds, that's all I need to prove myself" type of mindset. These are the guys who we need in our program, both as coaches and players. Somewhere in this country there is a young guy who would love the opportunity to prove himself as the head football coach at Georgetown University, I really believe that. If the money is there to bring in somebody legit, and the aid money is there to enable that coach to bring in the guys he wants and beat out other PL competition, I really do think we can make something happen. I think a young, charismatic coach could sell recruits on Georgetown despite the facilities issues..... No, we don't have a state-of-the-art stadium or training facility, but we've got a 100 yard long field and we've got plenty of weights for you to throw around, and we're recruiting a team full of tough-minded guys who are going to bring the program to prominence. And if you come to Georgetown you'll get a world-class education, from the strongest university in the PL, and you'll be in easily the most attractive location in the PL with a ton of opportunities for internships etc (a lot of recent football players have taken advantage of this, so there is precedent). I really believe the right guy could make that work. The key is finding that right guy and ponying up the money to bring him in. The other key is, we need to be on par with our peers in terms of aid given to players. If I'm a high school kid I honestly think I'd rather be at Georgetown than, say, Fordham or Lafayette, poor facilities and all, just because of what Georgetown offers off the field--if all else is equal. But if it comes down to paying full price or close to full price to go to Georgetown vs. getting a great aid package or even essentially a full ride to one of the other PL schools, it's pretty much a no-brainer in the other direction. |
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Post by gwhiz on Nov 10, 2009 21:19:52 GMT -5
I am not defending Coach Kelly, but as I have said in previous posts, throwing the coach under the bus is not addressing the underlying problem. Frankly, the reason Benson was let go is not relevant. Regardless of the reason, he was let go late and when Muir began the search, all of the "goodies" (both head coaches and assistants) were about gone. I think everyone agrees that there are many "underlying problems", but those take a lot of time to repair. Hiring the right coach can happen in two months and if he brings the energy (I am assuming he will know football), he can make a far bigger difference and much faster than any other single change. This program is dying to find someone who fills up the room with confidence and optimism. The dirty little secret about Georgetown football in my opinion is that the talent as compared to the opposition is not nearly as poor as the performance. I am not talking about strategy here. The right leadership can change the program in one season. The "underlying problems" will seem far less important and will be solved sooner once there is the right kind of leadership. Hopeful is on it. I believe your point about LEADERSHIP is at the heart of the matter. The young aspiring coach is the most likely scenario. However, if this decision is put off another year, then I think it's better for GU to invest an additional $500-700K into coaching staff salaries and bring in a strong group with a track record. Turnaround specialists don't come cheap. Then you can raise funds for the new stadium once they get a competent staff in place. |
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Post by gwhiz on Nov 10, 2009 21:53:16 GMT -5
RBHoya, when Brian Kelly was hired by Cincy the foundation was already in place. The first phase of the stadium renovation was complete, funding for the program was committed. The young 28 year old with great aspirations for the future is not coming to GU under the circumstances you laid out for him. He would be better off being an assistant in an established program and working his way up the ranks. If he is truly any good, he knows that. Any finally, Muir did not fire Benson because he wanted a change, there were other circumstances at play. Kevin Kelly was dealt a bad hand from day one, the timing could not have been worse. I am not defending Coach Kelly, but as I have said in previous posts, throwing the coach under the bus is not addressing the underlying problem. Sure seems like you are defending him. Kelly's not being thrown under the bus. This would imply his dismissal is undeserved. He's being asked to man-up and get off the bus. The kids have been dealt the bad hand here. I think you'd win more support for your ideas for change if you abandoned your position on Kelly. Forge on. |
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Post by hoyaparents on Nov 10, 2009 22:34:48 GMT -5
gwhiz, Coach Kelly's future is out of our hands. I am trying to focus on the bigger picture.
Does GU want to compete in the Patriot League on par with the other schools? If the answer is yes, then resources and facilities are at the heart of the problem.
I remember when my son was being recruited. I was blown away by some of the facilities at peer schools.
At GU, some of our kids played at high school facilities that put MSF to shame. You think it doesn't matter to these kids, and thei parents, sorry, I don't buy it.
Better coaching, sure, why not, but that's not enough.
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Post by hoyawatcher on Nov 11, 2009 0:22:16 GMT -5
gwhiz, Coach Kelly's future is out of our hands. I am trying to focus on the bigger picture. Does GU want to compete in the Patriot League on par with the other schools? If the answer is yes, then resources and facilities are at the heart of the problem. I remember when my son was being recruited. I was blown away by some of the facilities at peer schools. At GU, some of our kids played at high school facilities that put MSF to shame. You think it doesn't matter to these kids, and thei parents, sorry, I don't buy it. Better coaching, sure, why not, but that's not enough. I will pile on top of Hoyaparents - My kid is at GU in olympic sports. Recruited primarily by BE, ACC and Ivy schools. GU facilities were at the bottom of the BE and couldn't touch any of the ACC schools we went to. Not in the same universe. GU was about like several Ivy schools or schools like Davidson. Facilities at schools like Liberty and that level were significantly above GU. Yea - changing the coach would help the feel for the program and I am not one who normally shies away from firing coaches with bad performance (grew up with southern football where all bad seasons deserve a good firing  ) But the idea that we can find a young savant who is going to rescue our FB fortunes with bailing wire, bubble gum and 18 hour days is alluring but improbable. We are supposedly on track to have a new AD announced in Feb. The current AD is focused on finding his replacement and trying to complete the financing for the BB practice facility by hitting up the NBA boys. Between that and day to day stuff he has a pretty full plate for a half time gig. I can't imagine he wants to add firing and hiring a FB coach to his plate. Plus recognize he is a part time AD who really doesn't have the contacts in the coaching community to be able to find and coerce a young savant to come on board in a bad situation. Looking forward to the new guy, he may want to fire the FB coach during his introductory meeting with him, but he probably wants to know more about the landscape and commitments from the administration before he goes down that road. IMHO he gets his ducks in a row for what to do about FB and then executes (literally and figuratively). Unlike a big time southern FB program we are not talking about a huge revenue sport for GU so in the scheme of things if it languishes another year it ain't great but it also ain't a death knell like it would be at an SEC school. IMHO the new AD guy focuses on BB like a laser beam to make sure that is taken care of before moving on. Long winded way of saying it is most likely that Kelley gets one more year before the GU AD/administration is ready to make their FB move. Not necessarily deserved but IMHO reality. |
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Post by 98hoya on Nov 11, 2009 11:00:53 GMT -5
This conversation is so boring. Every week this season, we've had it. Every week, a bunch of blowhards (me included) have suggested sweeping, broad changes with no specific methods and no effective means to do it. "We need to demand leadership; we need to force the administration to listen." Greeeeeeeeeeatttt...now tell us how to do that and what exactly you'll say when you have the AD's here and effective leadership.
I think I'm done with it because it goes nowhere. When one of you passionate advocates can make a concrete suggestion with actual steps that can be taken (including those that you, yourself, are willing to do and that you can get others here involved with), please let us know.
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Post by 98hoya on Nov 11, 2009 11:05:48 GMT -5
PS - if what we want is a public commitment from the athletic department, we got it in arguably the most public forum in the entire world...the New York Times. The article where Muir and Kelly declared their commitment to the program was published more than 2 years ago. That's where they promised that the team was going to improve and that they were taking making the program better seriously (in fact, the article was entitled "Georgetown Gets Serious About Football"). For more than a year, DFW had the article linked up on the main Hoyasaxa.com website. It's now off the main page as best as I can tell. I don't blame him for doing that because it turns out it was all a bunch of lies. Don't take my word for it. If any of you haven't read it, here's the link. Judge for yourself just how serious our athletic department is about the program and how they've honored their commitments since the time of publication: www.nytimes.com/2007/10/13/sports/ncaafootball/13georgetown.html?ex=1349928000&en=b1b6e786681859fe&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss |
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eb59
Century (over 100 posts)
Posts: 152
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Post by eb59 on Nov 11, 2009 20:44:43 GMT -5
98Hoya - I started this thread with the intent to provide proative suggestions, starting with the only true link that we have betweeen Football Parents, Alumni and Supports and the AD / School which is the GridIron Club. I have asked what they do and how we can make them do more as nothing will get done until people meet with people face to face and goals / actions are mutually agreed upon....it is my opinion that this has not happened in the last 10+ years! "Ok, so maybe we need to start being more involved and making actual demands of the GridIron Club as members. I can honestly say that I have not done anything with regard to them other than receiving the occasional email update or donation request. Can the active members of this chat board and parents take the bull by the horns and start demanding regular meetings with the GridIron Club leadership to develop a plan and approach to extracting the needed commitments from the university? I for one would absolutely commit to making a trip up to DC on say a quarterly basis to sit down with GridIron Club leadership and hold their feet to the fire in terms of the progress that they are able to make with the AD and University. If I began seeing progress, they might start seeing money from me - kinda a pay for performance plan which also alows me to have more of a direct voice into the direction of the program." In addition to this, the GridIron Club needs to start scheduling community meetings on a quarterly basis that involve members of the Coaching Staff, AD and Administration. It is total BS that people want us to donate, but will not take a public meeting or be held accountable for plans that the money will be used towards! Perhaps this has never been broached by the GIron Club and the school and if it has not, which would be surprising? Can we get something like this set-up ASAP, like immediatley following the last game? Again, I will book my flight and commit to being there for this and all other meetings if it means that I get to look someone in the face that has some actual tie to the direction of the progam and ask, "WTF?  ?" Thoughts? |
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Post by gwhiz on Nov 11, 2009 23:32:40 GMT -5
This conversation is so boring. Every week this season, we've had it. Every week, a bunch of blowhards (me included) have suggested sweeping, broad changes with no specific methods and no effective means to do it. "We need to demand leadership; we need to force the administration to listen." Greeeeeeeeeeatttt...now tell us how to do that and what exactly you'll say when you have the AD's here and effective leadership. I think I'm done with it because it goes nowhere. When one of you passionate advocates can make a concrete suggestion with actual steps that can be taken (including those that you, yourself, are willing to do and that you can get others here involved with), please let us know. Hey 98, why is it that you are the leader in posts (668), yet you can't offer an action item nor a suggestion for a step in the right direction... and an action you are willing to take...specifically. |
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Post by 98hoya on Nov 11, 2009 23:43:12 GMT -5
98Hoya - I started this thread with the intent to provide proative suggestions, starting with the only true link that we have betweeen Football Parents, Alumni and Supports and the AD / School which is the GridIron Club. I have asked what they do and how we can make them do more as nothing will get done until people meet with people face to face and goals / actions are mutually agreed upon....it is my opinion that this has not happened in the last 10+ years! "Ok, so maybe we need to start being more involved and making actual demands of the GridIron Club as members. I can honestly say that I have not done anything with regard to them other than receiving the occasional email update or donation request. Can the active members of this chat board and parents take the bull by the horns and start demanding regular meetings with the GridIron Club leadership to develop a plan and approach to extracting the needed commitments from the university? I for one would absolutely commit to making a trip up to DC on say a quarterly basis to sit down with GridIron Club leadership and hold their feet to the fire in terms of the progress that they are able to make with the AD and University. If I began seeing progress, they might start seeing money from me - kinda a pay for performance plan which also alows me to have more of a direct voice into the direction of the program." In addition to this, the GridIron Club needs to start scheduling community meetings on a quarterly basis that involve members of the Coaching Staff, AD and Administration. It is total BS that people want us to donate, but will not take a public meeting or be held accountable for plans that the money will be used towards! Perhaps this has never been broached by the GIron Club and the school and if it has not, which would be surprising? Can we get something like this set-up ASAP, like immediatley following the last game? Again, I will book my flight and commit to being there for this and all other meetings if it means that I get to look someone in the face that has some actual tie to the direction of the progam and ask, "WTF? ?" Thoughts? First off, I'm with you that it's irritating that donor money (mine included) went down a MSF black hole and has apparently not been used or used for something else. That makes me feel irritated AND ripped off. So, ya, I'm with you with being ticked on that. With respect to getting the Gridiron better organized, honestly, my thoughts are: (a) very few will put their money where their mouth is and fly to DC for a Gridiron Club meeting and (b) when they do, they'll sit around a room with 2-3 other people and repeat the same conversation that gets repeated on this website, over and over, and get nothing done. I just don't see a lot of great ideas to fix things, other than demanding big, systemic changes that seem unrealistic. I've followed this board for a long time and, save for some pretty thoughtful stuff DFW has posted over the years, I haven't seen anything by way of tangible, concrete suggestions (and even some of DFW's stuff, I'd argue, is pie-in-the-sky). That's where I was going before when I said that this conversation just keeps getting repeated and goes nowhere. Look man, if you can create a new group or get the Gridiron Club to work better, then that's great. And I support it. With that said, I don't see it happening because I don't think anyone (not knocking you - I truly mean ANYONE, me included) has any idea what realistic thing they expect the Gridiron Club to do. Getting organized is cool if there's the possibility of creating a realistic action plan after that, but I just haven't seen any evidence that there's an action plan that can realistically happen. |
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Post by 98hoya on Nov 11, 2009 23:48:04 GMT -5
This conversation is so boring. Every week this season, we've had it. Every week, a bunch of blowhards (me included) have suggested sweeping, broad changes with no specific methods and no effective means to do it. "We need to demand leadership; we need to force the administration to listen." Greeeeeeeeeeatttt...now tell us how to do that and what exactly you'll say when you have the AD's here and effective leadership. I think I'm done with it because it goes nowhere. When one of you passionate advocates can make a concrete suggestion with actual steps that can be taken (including those that you, yourself, are willing to do and that you can get others here involved with), please let us know. Hey 98, why is it that you are the leader in posts (668), yet you can't offer an action item nor a suggestion for a step in the right direction... and an action you are willing to take...specifically. No, I can't. And you can't either...which is exactly why I suggested that this conversation is circular, frustrating and pointless. Saying "the administration/coaches/Gridiron Club stink and we need to get organized and demand that they stop stinking" is simply not a realistic or effective "suggestion" as I see it. If I had what I thought was a realistic suggestion for concrete change, believe me, I'd have made it. I don't. |
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) But the idea that we can find a young savant who is going to rescue our FB fortunes with bailing wire, bubble gum and 18 hour days is alluring but improbable. We are supposedly on track to have a new AD announced in Feb. The current AD is focused on finding his replacement and trying to complete the financing for the BB practice facility by hitting up the NBA boys. Between that and day to day stuff he has a pretty full plate for a half time gig. I can't imagine he wants to add firing and hiring a FB coach to his plate. Plus recognize he is a part time AD who really doesn't have the contacts in the coaching community to be able to find and coerce a young savant to come on board in a bad situation. 
?"