jester
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Post by jester on Aug 8, 2009 14:54:24 GMT -5
Clark looked good when he needed to take threes this summer - Wright still looks that isnt his shot (how did he win the Mcdonalds 3pt contest?). I agree we struggled with this more than we should, and the capability/consistancy of an Ashanti, Bowman, Green, Wallace, Riley etc all having respectable strokes/precentages really added an element to the Princeton that this team so far lacks. But, as others have said, good execution of their current strengths could make up for this.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 8, 2009 15:41:15 GMT -5
Clark looked good when he needed to take threes this summer - Wright still looks that isnt his shot (how did he win the Mcdonalds 3pt contest?). I agree we struggled with this more than we should, and the capability/consistancy of an Ashanti, Bowman, Green, Wallace, Riley etc all having respectable strokes/precentages really added an element to the Princeton that this team so far lacks. But, as others have said, good execution of their current strengths could make up for this. Riley never played under Thompson. Maybe you meant Owens. But I'm glad you brought up Cook, Bowman and Green because they never lit up the KL with three-point shooting either. And I think Wallace tended to shoot worse from the three-point line during the KL than he did during the regular season.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Aug 8, 2009 16:05:24 GMT -5
Chris problem is that his form isn't consistent. When his shot is off he usually just needs to get more rotation on the ball, but other times he had great rotation. He is still a threat from the outside, just inconsistent and was pretty good for us last year. If he really wants to make it in the pros though, he will have to improve in that area. Its not like you can leave him open from three at any point, he just needs to become more consistent.
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jester
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Post by jester on Aug 8, 2009 16:39:41 GMT -5
Sorry - I did mean Owens. Agreed it would not be good to extrapolate too much from Kenner. As a team I still see this as an important area for improvement - our outside shooting in a Princeton offense (especially with Summers gone) would benefit from stronger consistency/depth/timeliness - well that, and rebounding of course.
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blueandgray
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Post by blueandgray on Aug 8, 2009 19:02:25 GMT -5
I think we are all aware why people complain about Monroe's lack of a right hand (and I'm in agreement with his really needing one). My point is lets put this in perspective because other big men at GU didn't develop their off hand either. And, no, playing great defense is not an excuse to overlook that inability. I not only want the Hoyas to win I want its former players to go on to the NBA and have champioship-level success. Tim Duncan played great defense too. He also developed his off hand and he learned how to make the correct passes out of the post (something that Pat, Zo and Deke also were never great at). Perhaps that's a main reason why Duncan has four championship rings. He certainly didn't have more athletic ability than Ewing or Mourning....or even Mutombo. I am not saying Greg shouldn't develop is right hand if he did play great defense, but I would be perfectly happy as a Gtown fan this season if he was a great defender with a lousy right hand. Overtime there is no excuse for him not to develop a right hand, but if for this year I had to choose between great defense and a right hand, I would choose defense every single time. Which is all I was saying. Not that Greg should never develop a right hand if he plays great defense, just that I wouldn't complain about it THIS year, if he plays great defense. Because you can't fix everything in one offseason so if he decided to focus on something else and became great at it, how could you complain? For the NBA he needs a right hand more than he does in college, and its another main reason I want him to develop one. Probably the biggest because I really want to see him go top 5. But if he has to stay and extra year or two at Gtown to really get it down, I guess I will suffer through it. Sorry to jump in so late on the question of Monroe and his one handedness....but I'm in the camp that too much is being made of it. Yes, a right hand is important, but if I had to choose between the ability to go right and the ability to knock down a 12 foot shot on a consistent basis...i take the mid-range jumper all day long. If Monroe takes and drains that shot consistently, defenders will have to play im honest, bite on his pump fakes and then he can go left all he wants.
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Post by NTAMM on Aug 9, 2009 16:18:22 GMT -5
For a post player, as a right hander, Zo had a decent left hand. Particularly when he was with Miami, I witnessed him going left and finishing strong with his left land quite a few times. On the left side of the paint, Zo’s defender would often play him to go right and give up the baseline. With superior athleticism, Zo could and did go left to the baseline and finish against most defenders. Realize that at most, he was taking two dribbles to get to the hop.
Zo was not as successful going to left when posted up on the right side; when he was forced to go left to the middle. As MCIGuy noted, Zo had no signature post up move such as Hakeem’s spin move or Duncan’s jumper off the backboard. Zo’s post moves were either trying to power it to the basket and/or using his quickness and speed to beat his defender to the basket. But, at the height of his career (just before his kidney problems surfaced), he had very good footwork. At the time, at the center position, only Shaquille O’Neal had better footwork than Zo. I remember Zo, largely without frontcourt help, destroying a San Antonio frontline that included Tim Duncan and David Robinson. Zo was that good. At the height of Shaq’s career, the only center who could come close to handling Shaq was Zo. (Again, this was right before Zo’s kidney problems.) Offensively, Zo could play away from the basket against O’Neal. Away from the basketball, Shaq couldn’t match Zo’s speed and quickness. Shaq would give up the outside jumper. Zo could hit it farly consistently against Shaq. Defensively, Zo was superior to Shaq.
When Zo would play Shaq from the outside-in, he gave Shaq problems. However, Zo would take the challenge personally and try to prove he could play inside with Shaq. He couldn’t – nobody could play inside with Shaq in the late 1990s through mid 2000s. This leads to where were Zo’s had problems. And where Zo and Monroe may have similar issues.
There were three players that I thought really gave Zo problems: Patrick Ewing, Michael Jordan, and Indiana’s Antonio Davis. They were all able to get into Zo’s head. Patrick’s familiarity with Zo’s game, allowed him to dominate Zo even after Patrick could no longer play at an All-Star level. Michael Jordan spoke publicly about how he could mentally take Zo out of his game. (But, Michael could do that to nearly everybody – except maybe Allen Iverson.) I had the opportunity to speak to Antonio Davis about how he could handle Zo in contrast to his bigger, taller frontcourt partner Dale Davis. Antonio Davis was not as skilled as Dale Davis nor was he close to possessing the skill set of Zo. But, he was close to Zo in speed, quickness, hunger, and mental toughness. He could (and did) use those attributes to frustrate Zo. Frustrate Zo and he would lose his composure. Zo’s Miami teams had to come out of the East against Chicago, New York, and/or Indiana to make to the NBA finals. Miami never could make past any of these teams. Really, none of the other teams could handle Zo.
The problem for Zo wasn’t his lack of “go-to” move or lack of an opposite (left) hand. His problems were three-fold. First and primary was that certain teams (in the East) could take him mentally out of his game. That was the primary knock on Zo. The second problem, at Miami (the first time), he never played along side a power forward who could rebound, be physical with the opponents to complement Zo, and have Zo’s back. (Jamal Mashburn was a finesse player, Kurt Thomas might have been that player; but, he was always injured. Larry Johnson was that type of player; but that was when Zo was in Charlotte.) The third problem was that Zo was not a particularly good passer – particularly out of the double team.
With that said, one should be cautious about comparing Monroe to Mourning. Monroe will take a vastly different game to the NBA than Mourning. Monroe will be more of a finesse player than Mourning and probably play mostly power forward. (To this day, I believe Mourning could have been a hall-of-fame power forward; but, he never really wanted to learn to play the position.).
In November, I pointed out that Greg Monroe did not have a right hand. There were a number of times in the Wichita State game (and maybe the Tennessee game), that he could have gone right and would have had easy baskets. If he had gone right, there was nobody there to stop him from taking the ball to the hoop. At the time, I thought that was his main weakness. I was wrong. Looking back over the season, (1) his physical strength, (2) his level of mental intensity, (3) not being selfish enough (great players exhibit some level of selfishness on the court), and (4) his defense were (and are) more pressing issues than whether or not he has a right hand.
The mental aspects of the game, Monroe’s may have been the major issue with him the past season. Of those issues mentioned, it may have been the one issue that resulted from the teammates around him. Mourning (and Ewing and Mutombo) were not expected to be the on-court leaders as freshman. Ewing had Floyd, Brown, Spriggs, and Smith to teach him how to play in the Big East. Mourning had Smith, Jackson, Winston, and Bryant around him. By the end of the 2008-2009 season, many were wanting Monroe to be more of an on-the-court leader – because no one else on the team appeared to be stepping up.
Developing a right hand will certainly lead to improvement in Monroe’s offensive game. But, not having one will not detour Monroe from having a great college and NBA career. Sometimes we forgot (I forgot) that Monroe was just a freshman. Although, I was one who mentioned Monroe’s lack of right hand, I think that the impact of not having one has been overblown. When you look at the total package, Monroe is right now a superior player. He will get better as he matures.
By the way, thanks to everyone -- in particular FLHoya -- for the recaps and dicussion of the Kenner league.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 9, 2009 17:33:47 GMT -5
Outstanding post, NATMM. Obviously you were paying just as much attention to Zo's pro career as I was. But there are a few points I may still differ on.
First sure Jordan may have gotten into Zo's head but to me it was more than just that. The entire Bulls team (well at least the very top players) and the coaches seem to take their jabs at Mourning. And its good that you brought up how at times Zo could lose his mental focus (I forgot to bring that up myself---Zo would allow others to take him out of the game just with a verbal barrage), because Rodman especially took glee at getting his goat.
Yes, the Bulls had his number and Ewing owned him. But if I'm not mistaken (and I may have to check out my video collection to make sure), Zo was a bit disappointing in his first and second years with Miami during post season play because he didn't light up teams like Orlando (post-Shaq) and Detroit when he faced them. Yes, his teams won and that is what counts and yes Alonzo did manage to score his share as well as block a lot of shots, but the scoring down the stretch often fell to Tim Hardaway and whichever Heat player (Mashburn, Marjle) who got hot that game. I can't recall him putting a scare into guys like David Robinson and Olajuwan either. It was like every time I checked the box score he had inferior numbers to them when he went up against their teams. But my memory may just be bad when it comes to those matchups. In the same token I didn't recall him struggling against the Pacers but I'll take your word on that one. After their second season though it seemed as if Shaq was always out-dueling Zo. Zo played Shaq as tough as one could and if he had a go to move he would have probably scored just as much as Shaq in those contests. But in the end even Zo would say that Shaq got the best of him. Of course it didn't help that at that time Shaq had a vendetta against all Georgetown big men and wanted to humiliate them whenever possible.
Also while I agree Zo always lacked a true warrior to play alongside him in the post when in Miami, his situation wouldn't have been all that much if he had a guy like Oakley. Oakley was about doing the dirt work in the post but for the Knicks to thrive they needed a guy in the frontcourt who could score at a high rate. That guy was Ewing. Mourning wasn't at Ewing's level in terms of offense. In a way Mourning was a VERY rich man's Oakley, plus with more height and more athletic ability (and a special power to block shots like no one else). Buy that I mean Zo was more willing, as a center, to do all the dirty work and little things than guys like Shaq, Olajuwan, Robinson and Ewing were. Give Mourning a scoring PF (a PF who could score off his own moves) like Chris Webber, a young Antonio McDyess, Rasheed Wallace and even a Horace Grant and that would have been a perfect compliment for Zo and taken some of the defensive focus of other teams off of him.
We do agree on the fact that Alonzo was entering into his prime just before he came down with that illness. He was First Team All NBA that previous season and looked as if he was going to have about four more years playing at that high level. Unfortunately the kidney problem ruined what could have been. In fact the team that most immediately benefited from Zo's health problems were the 76ers. No way they would have been the #1 seed in the East with a healthy Zo playing alongside a newly acquired Brian Grant for the Miami Heat.
As for Monroe I do love his skill level and his ability to play facing the basket and beat you a lot of different ways. But finesse player or no he needs to add that element of not just a right hand but a post up game. The guy is a legit 6'10 (without shoes) according to recent measurements and he needs to take advantage of that. It would make him much more of a threat in college and the pro level. This comment by one writer regarding the recent sumer league in Vegas convinces me of that more than ever:
The Death of the Back-to-the-Basket Game
"Name one guy here who can hit a jump hook over their left shoulder," an NBA assistant general manager asked. "I can't think of one." Whether it's the trickle-down effect of the European game, the rule changes implemented by the league a few years ago, or college teams appropriating Mike D'Antoni-style basketball, the vast majority of the young bigs who were in Las Vegas are face-up players who work either along the perimeter or out of the pinch post: Anthony Randolph, Earl Clark, James Johnson, Taj Gibson, Dante Cunningham, DaJuan Summers, Austin Daye, and even Blake Griffin. Is this a momentary trend, or will the pendulum eventually swing back? "If I were a big man about to enter college, I would develop that back-to-the-basket game," the executive said. The implication: At some point, those skills will be at a premium, and that kid will be impossible to defend. Forward-looking teams are all about buying low and, right now, traditional post players are undervalued because they don't conform to the current climate of the NBA game.
If Monroe wants to be truly all he can be, if he actually came back to college to make himself a complete player, then he must add post up moves to his repertoire.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 10, 2009 10:48:21 GMT -5
As for Monroe's "one-handedness", why is this only an issue for lefties? I never heard much about any of our right handed players' deficiencies in ambidextrosity.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 10, 2009 11:14:07 GMT -5
As for Monroe's "one-handedness", why is this only an issue for lefties? I never heard much about any of our right handed players' deficiencies in ambidextrosity. That was kind of my point when I brought up Zo. I was just using Mourning as an example. Although if most players are right-handed doesn't that mean, if the are defending someone in the post, they would be more effective blocking the shot of a leftie?
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Aug 10, 2009 11:35:36 GMT -5
Actually, as counter-intuitive as it may sound, I think most players are initially thrown off when defending a lefty, as it is a look they are not as accustomed to dealing with.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Aug 10, 2009 12:06:32 GMT -5
Actually, as counter-intuitive as it may sound, I think most players are initially thrown off when defending a lefty, as it is a look they are not as accustomed to dealing with. This is definitely true. Guys are just used and trained to force people to their left. So when they have to force a guy to the right the whole game, its a little harder. When they aren't really focusing on it, they just force guys to the right. I think the reason why Greg is picked on so much for not having a right, as opposed to right handers who don't have a left, is because not only is his right EXTREMELY weak, but he is the focus of our offense. Any major flaw in him, could be an easy way for an opposing team to stop our offense. Not only that, but offensively, he doesn't have too many weaknesses outside of that so it just makes it more obvious. Now that being said, I agree with NTAAM, that there are a lot of other things that he can improve on to make him a much better player. Developing a right hand(even just for right handed layups) would seem to be the least complicated one to improve. Its a lot simpler to learn how to take a layup with your right hand, then become a tougher player mentally and become more selfish.
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hoyarooter
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Post by hoyarooter on Aug 10, 2009 12:58:35 GMT -5
Why did Shaq have a vendetta against all GU centers? I don't recall hearing that before.
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Post by dcc33 on Aug 10, 2009 13:02:05 GMT -5
Who doesn't Shaq have a vendetta against?
Seriously though, I think Shaq always wanted to be considered the best, and Ewing/Mourning were two of his competitors for the best center at that time. Of course, leave it to Shaq to make something personal out of it.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Aug 10, 2009 13:18:23 GMT -5
Who doesn't Shaq have a vendetta against? Seriously though, I think Shaq always wanted to be considered the best, and Ewing/Mourning were two of his competitors for the best center at that time. Of course, leave it to Shaq to make something personal out of it. True Shaq always has a vendetta against someone each week. But in his book he mentoned something about not being recruited by Gtown and something about perhaps a sense of superiority amongst the Gtown guys (Mutombo included) although don't hold me to that last one. It came across to me as his being jealous over not being part of a club, but, hey it was long ago and he got passed that after a couple of sitdowns with JT for TNT. Steve Francis also had a vendetta against Gtown players too because JT did not really recruit him . Francis was out to dunk over every Hoya player his first couple of years in the league. But he too got over and that and would later appear to spend more time up at Gtown with JT and the guys than he would at College Park with Gary and the fellas.
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