SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 29, 2012 13:56:23 GMT -5
As a UCLA fan, I think I'm qualified to comment on this. 1. I thought the players felt Howland was too tough, not too soft. That's obviously wrong. Howland should have dealt more severely with Whacko Nelson from day one. That's on him. He also shouldn't have let Smith get away with anything. Perhaps if he had been harder on Smith, Smith wouldn't have spent last summer just eating and getting fat (again). It's fairly obvious that Howland is both. He's an ass -- and was so to even his assistant coaches. But he's also a pansy who was afraid to upset his star recruits. The worst of both worlds. I would want him fired immediately if the article is accurate. And I wouldn't be taking Howland's word for it. The being too soft on top recruits can be solved, yes, but the general bits of Edited-dom -- firing the student manager but not disciplining the players; being rude to the assistant coaches; putting up with Nelson's vindictive crap (trying to INJURE players?!?! Punting the balls into the rafters?). It's clear that Howland simply isn't a good person. If JTIII were like that, I'd want him gone.
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Post by gtowndynasty on Feb 29, 2012 14:04:55 GMT -5
As a UCLA fan, I think I'm qualified to comment on this. 4. Dynasty, I don't know if you were speaking for the community or for yourself, but to say that Howland doesn't develop players is insane. Who had ever heard of Russell Westbrook when he arrived in Westwood? He left after his sophomore year as the fourth pick in the draft. Afflalo was a solid recruit, but by the time he left, he was the best defensive guard in the Pac 10. Ditto Malcolm Lee. Holiday left after one somewhat disappointing season, but it was still only one season, and he was still a first round pick. I have no doubt that if he had stayed at UCLA for a couple more years, he would have had a great career. Players almost never got better under Lavin. That is in no way true for Howland. As for Kyle, well, if he wants to reopen his recruiting, I'd love to have him. If not, I'm happy UCLA has him. I guess we will disagree on that. But hear me out- The idea that RW was as good as he was, but his talent was hidden at UCLA speaks volumes to me and many others. So no, I dont speak for myself when I say that. The fact that Stanback didnt get off the bench and had to transfer for his diamond to shine. Same with Mike Moser and Drew Gordon. These were good players that didnt shine in the system or couldnt get off Howland's bench but they go to other schools and become stars?? GTown has transfers too, but we dont let good ones get out. None of our former players have gone on to experience the type of success UCLA players have. Mike Moser is now considered a border first round pick. And as far as RW, he was taken 4th because he is an amazing talent. It had nothing to do with what he did at ucla. If they went on that alone, he wouldnt have been a top 5 pick. It is why the Bruin community was so shocked he went 4th, and even college bball fans generally. Nobody knew what he could do playing under Howland. UCLA can get any coach it wants. It is apparent to me and many others that Howland has worn out his welcome. Top recruits are no longer signing up and he hasnt shown an ability to win without top talent. Since Love/Westbrook have exited, Bruins have had mediocre talent. They havent won, or even been close.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 29, 2012 14:06:44 GMT -5
This story is only news because it provided details and accounts that were confirmed. At least Nelson had the balls to talk/be quoted--which despite his disgusting behavior and intolerable personality--he at least went on record, unlike the "anonymous" sources/quotes. My take on Holwand/UCLA:
1. Some boosters are tired of losing--and want change and floated this story to media outlets and want to get a "sexy" coach in place. They finally wised up and dumped Neuheisel and got a bit of life/direction in their FB program despite having one of the most inept AD's in the country. So Boosters/power brokers who actually care about athletics are doing same here.
2. Whomever compared "Bobo" Morgan to Lew Alcindor and Bill Walton should be outed, banned from ever watching the sport and told he's a moron.
3. What kind of "team' do you have when someone is allowed to pick on teammates/belittle staff and nobody steps in and fights for their teammates? makes sense why Nelson always looked like he was battered in games--black eyes, broken nose, etc.....
4. Kyle Anderson scared one guy at Nike Camp as being a kid "I'm not sure will work hard enough". Guy did evaluations for each position and what he saw/didn't see as he was a coach at Nike Lebron Camp--and evaluations were posted on Justin Young's National Recruiting Report. In same evaluations this guy liked DSR for his "toughness" and wasn't critical of Anderson's talent/personality as a person but more of "how bad will he work to improve" and reading this--Kyle's selection makes a lot more sense.
5. UCLA is a great job and can attract big time coaches. I think Ben Howland did a great job there initially and what is always overlooked--things started to slip when his initial staff left/got head coaching jobs. Those are guys who have your back/you trust and and know will do same for you--and you've worked together. Happens at a lot of programs-when there is a divide on staff and guys are just there because they think they can advance quicker career wise (DAVE COX is one of biggest offenders of this) the job they are supposed to do doesn't get done and team dissention at all levels takes place. This story could be written about several programs currently in country and many of the activities take place everywhere--guys party no differently then most college students--although every good program I've ever dealt with mentions they ask the players to abstain inseason--have their fun (legally/responsible manner) in offseason. Now do the players listen? Of course not--but they also pay when they mess up and get caught. Once you lose the threat of discipline, you've lost the team. Howland isn't any less of a coach--but he's lost his team/program due to being weak and doing a bad job replacing departing staff members. Too many assistants are hired soley as recruiters and don't reinforce the beliefs of the HC and program and try to be "friends" with players and often socialize/party with them. It's disturbing to say least but happens. Hell Billy Gillespie and Larry Eustachy did this as Head Coaches, so shouldn't be any shocker.
Last but not least--if Kyle Anderson re-opens his recruitment, I don't want Georgetown to even place a call. The program has taken steps forward and while I think he's a good player and fit for what Hoyas like to do, get guys who commit to wanting to be in program and believe in what you do. He obviously didn't feel that way and no problem at all with that-but it's time to move on and several kids are interested and like having Hoyas as an option.
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jsk793
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Post by jsk793 on Feb 29, 2012 14:08:09 GMT -5
^ This. Especially the part about Kyle re-opening his recruitment
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Post by pr20 on Feb 29, 2012 14:22:35 GMT -5
I remember russell westbrook at leuzinger high. he was a really late bloomer who played sparringly as a freshman and exploded as a sophomore. He showed he could handle the point well enough during the early stretch when Jordan Farmar went down. Also he took advantage of his shot to prove himself by locking down OJ mayo two times. I don't agree with the idea that he didn't develop or was suppressed at UCLA. He just needed time to develop. We forget that he has gotten better 4 straight years in OKC. He was oly 5'9" in the 11th grade. I can see the criticism of howland in a lot of instances but not this one.
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hoyasexy
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Post by hoyasexy on Feb 29, 2012 14:26:05 GMT -5
Last but not least--if Kyle Anderson re-opens his recruitment, I don't want Georgetown to even place a call. The program has taken steps forward and while I think he's a good player and fit for what Hoyas like to do, get guys who commit to wanting to be in program and believe in what you do. He obviously didn't feel that way and no problem at all with that-but it's time to move on and several kids are interested and like having Hoyas as an option. I am certainly sympathetic to this thought. Reading this article certainly makes me question the character of any kid who would want to play at UCLA (in all senses of the word). That said, I can't conclude that he is a bad kid just because he made this choice. If the staff thinks his character is strong enough to be an asset in the Blue and Gray, then I say we should go after him. Besides, it doesn't follow that just because he committed to UCLA, he was unwilling to be a part of the Hoya program, nor does it mean that he doesn't believe in what the Hoyas are trying to do. He can commit to only one program. Just because he chose one program doesn't mean he didn't like the others. I'm sure there was a good reason why we were on his list of finalists, but at the end of the day, he could only pick one.
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hoyabinx
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Post by hoyabinx on Feb 29, 2012 14:30:43 GMT -5
Last but not least--if Kyle Anderson re-opens his recruitment, I don't want Georgetown to even place a call. The program has taken steps forward and while I think he's a good player and fit for what Hoyas like to do, get guys who commit to wanting to be in program and believe in what you do. He obviously didn't feel that way and no problem at all with that-but it's time to move on and several kids are interested and like having Hoyas as an option. Besides, it doesn't follow that just because he committed to UCLA, he was unwilling to be a part of the Hoya program, nor does it mean that he doesn't believe in what the Hoyas are trying to do. He can commit to only one program. Just because he chose one program doesn't mean he didn't like the others. I'm sure there was a good reason why we were on his list of finalists, but at the end of the day, he could only pick one. I echo that I'd love for Georgetown to re-recruit him (if he de-commits). It worked out very well for Chris Wright, in my opinion. He was a guy who, according to RDF's metric, "did not want to be in the program" and "did not believe in what we do" [paraphrase], and I loved having him as a Hoya.
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IDenj
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Post by IDenj on Feb 29, 2012 14:44:12 GMT -5
My guess is if Anderson decides he doesn't want to go to UCLA, and chooses to reopen his recruitment, he might have to give something back.
College ball isn't the finish line. Sounds like a kid who thinks that.
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NCHoya
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Post by NCHoya on Feb 29, 2012 14:47:01 GMT -5
Agree with most of what RDF wrote especially about Kyle Anderson. That boat has sailed, he made his decision and did not see himself as a Hoya. Good-bye.
My biggest reaction to this story is not some of the details of what happened (I think that can happen anywhere with pampered, immature athletes) but Howland's complete lack of acknowledgement of the issue. Allowing certain players to get away with outrageous, team degenerating behavior while holding it against "weaker" people like the manager is spineless and a true comment on Howland's character.
When a player like Markel walks off the court instead of playing defense, does Howland even say a word to him much less suspend him for a game?
Also, I wonder if the Wear twins did not provide insurance in the frontcourt whether Reeves would still be on the UCLA roster. Howland's loyalty to talent over people is just awful.
UCLA can pretty much get anyone they want, so no reason to feel loyal to Howland. He has clearly demonstrated he is not capable of managing players off the court and a program like UCLA requires a complete coach. I think everyone was wondering what was going on in Westwood, at least now we all know.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 29, 2012 14:53:42 GMT -5
Besides, it doesn't follow that just because he committed to UCLA, he was unwilling to be a part of the Hoya program, nor does it mean that he doesn't believe in what the Hoyas are trying to do. He can commit to only one program. Just because he chose one program doesn't mean he didn't like the others. I'm sure there was a good reason why we were on his list of finalists, but at the end of the day, he could only pick one. I echo that I'd love for Georgetown to re-recruit him (if he de-commits). It worked out very well for Chris Wright, in my opinion. He was a guy who, according to RDF's metric, "did not want to be in the program" and "did not believe in what we do" [paraphrase], and I loved having him as a Hoya. Chris Wright chose a program that ran same offensive system as Georgetown-so him re-opening things after Sendek left NC State for Arizona State made sense for Georgetown--seeing the player wasn't viewing their system as a negative. Kyle Anderson's game fits Georgetown even more then Wright--but he chose UCLA and Howland and "bright lights" of Los Angeles. Perfectly fine--but if that's what you want, the way Georgetown does things won't be a good fit.
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Post by Ranch Dressing on Feb 29, 2012 14:56:28 GMT -5
Howland ain't getting fired, not with the class they have coming in. He will get at least next year or two to turn things around. Those 3 Final 4s are powerful.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Feb 29, 2012 15:04:08 GMT -5
Just cause a player picked a school that doesnt mean he wouldnt prefer to be at another school. Just sayin. To say that the ship has already sailed if he were to re-open his recruitment is just naive.
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Post by thejerseytornado on Feb 29, 2012 15:06:02 GMT -5
To stick to Kyle Anderson, a simple question: a seventeen/eighteen year old has never made a mistake in a big life decision?
If Kyle re-opens and decides to go with the hoyas, maybe he matured? Maybe he was swayed by the line of UCLA point guards that are doing well in the NBA and not by Howland's terribleness? Maybe he decided that if he was going away from home, he'd go far away? To constrain the hoyas' choices because howland's a terrible person and kyle committed to that program is just sour grapes based on circumstantial evidence.
Now, if Kyle did pick UCLA because he'd have free reign over that program, well that'd be a red flag. But we don't know that that is true. I'd be pretty confident that IF he re-opens AND he picks the hoyas, he knows what type of coaching he'd be signing up for.
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hoyasexy
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Post by hoyasexy on Feb 29, 2012 15:16:21 GMT -5
Chris Wright chose a program that ran same offensive system as Georgetown-so him re-opening things after Sendek left NC State for Arizona State made sense for Georgetown--seeing the player wasn't viewing their system as a negative. Kyle Anderson's game fits Georgetown even more then Wright--but he chose UCLA and Howland and "bright lights" of Los Angeles. Perfectly fine--but if that's what you want, the way Georgetown does things won't be a good fit. The reason why Kyle's game fits so well at Georgetown is because of his versatility. That said, a versatile player can fit in in a lot of places, even if those places don't run similar systems. As for the "bright lights", I'm not aware that Kyle has stated that this was the reason he chose UCLA. While you can choose to ascribe intentions to Kyle, I hope the staff would do more than make assumptions about the decisionmaking process of an 18 year old before they decide not to re-recruit him (if he opens it back up).
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Feb 29, 2012 15:20:59 GMT -5
Nobody is taking a shot at Kyle Anderson-just saying--if you choose to be part of that program, you didn't do the homework. There is a reason UCLA hosted him in offseason when they had NBA alums around and not the current team. Everything was glitz/glam and looked great. It's also a huge red flag imo. Why do you think most programs want to invite guys for officials/visits when school is in session? They want him to interract with the players and see how it goes--do they hit it off or are they bad fit? Personalities clashing isn't end of world--but you have to be able to blend on the court/fit together and hanging around NBA guys is great--but it's not who you are playing with at UCLA.
Talk about recruiting all you want and hyped classes-but Wear Twins, Josh Smith, Kyle, Jordan Adams, and possibly Tony Parker is about as slow footed and crappy as a defensive team that any high major could put on the court. That is an unathletic, slow group who some of the group only commits to eating snacks and would rather be clown princes off the court then work on it.
It's a business decision, not a vacation and Kyle kept going to LA in offseason and it's a great city--but there's a lot more to making a decision that fits you best then enjoying weather and great city--it's about whether you want to take next step or not and pickup games with NBA guys in offseason are great--but as I stated above--they aint playing with you come November--so you better have good fit for/around you or it's going to end up disappointing. Hell Hoyas had Ewing/Zo/Mutombo, etc... play in offseason with guys and when you have Jameel Watkins and Rhese Gibson as team-that isn't going to make a difference come time to play.
FIT is more important and too many kids fall in love with an aspect that doesn't fit. It's why 40% of D1 recruits are transferring by their Soph year. They think with heart instead of their head when it comes time to select a program.
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guru
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Post by guru on Feb 29, 2012 15:27:11 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 15:29:11 GMT -5
Howland ain't getting fired, not with the class they have coming in. He will get at least next year or two to turn things around. Those 3 Final 4s are powerful. Agree with the final 4 part of course, and that he probably isn’t getting fired but Kyle Anderson And Jordan Adams?? That’s not exactly killing it on the recruiting trail..Seriously doubt Bazz and Parker will still be considering UCLA now..
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tonyparker
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Post by tonyparker on Feb 29, 2012 15:35:10 GMT -5
I believe Kyle has been quoted as saying, or it is widely believed, that of his final four/five we were in last place. So I think even if he de-commits, he ain't coming to the Hilltop.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 29, 2012 15:40:07 GMT -5
To me, the relevance of the story is that top recruits should be very careful when selecting schools. If a recruit's primary selection criteria is that he has a great time on his visit and that other top players are attending, he may be overlooking underlying weaknesses to a program. A coach's discipline and control over a program and his ability to promote and foster an environment of compliance with NCAA and team trainging rules should be a pretty relevant factor in making a decision. That is where parental input becomes critical. If those factors are ignored, the recruit could find himself committed to a school that all of a sudden is facing coaching/player turnover, sanctions, etc. Historically, we tend to do well recruiting players and parents of players who value tight controls and family/tough love atmosphere. And this I agree with. If I were a parent with a son who was an outstanding basketball player, besides stressing academics, I would never want him playing at a school where the players were permitted to run amok, or weren't treated equally regardless of status. That's absolutely unacceptable. Then Georgetown wouldn't be in the mix, at least under JT2. I have no problem with a coach treating star players differently (to an extent, obviously).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 29, 2012 15:42:21 GMT -5
I believe Kyle has been quoted as saying, or it is widely believed, that of his final four/five we were in last place. So I think even if he de-commits, he ain't coming to the Hilltop. Nah that was the Seton Hall Blogger and Zangoria..
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