Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,301
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Post by Cambridge on Apr 9, 2009 14:00:26 GMT -5
Besides the Deists (Jefferson, Franklin, and others), masons and enlightenment crowd, there was a fair number of non-Christians in the population of colonial America.
First Muslims are reported in the New World as early as the 1530s assisting in the Spanish exploration of the West. Extensive writings by one named Ayyub Bin Sulaiman Jallon from 1732 exists as well. It's estimated that as many as 30% of the 10m slaves brought from Africa were Muslim.
First Jews came to the US in 1658 founding a settlement in Newport, RI and eventually building the first synagogue in the New World in 1763.
Should be noted that Hamilton was of partial Jewish decent.
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SoCalHoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
No es bueno
Posts: 1,313
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Post by SoCalHoya on Apr 9, 2009 14:08:48 GMT -5
The only reason government i in the marriage business is because of taxes. eliminate the tax code that concerns its self with marriage and then govt is out of the marriage game. PERIOD. taxes are the ONLY reason for govt to be in the marriage game. PERIOD jgalt, I see where you are coming from, but what you are saying ignores a few things. State governments are "in the marriage business" for many reasons, taxes being only one part. Most notably, historically marriage was run by the Church, and almost all of the Church's powers are now run by the states (education, marriage, etc.). Outside of history, I think the government does have a right to get in the marriage game. For centuries (or millenia even), recognized civil unions have helped promote stability (generally!) and prosperity. And "the government" should be into promoting stability and prosperity, right? And if the government wasn't there to help regulate the dissolutions of those unions...there's an argument that there'd be a lot more domestic problems out there (just think of your worst break-ups with a BF/GF).
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,834
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Post by thebin on Apr 9, 2009 20:04:11 GMT -5
Another quote: “Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right” - A. Lincoln[/quot. B. Poetic license my friend, he also said he would like to have God on his side but he must have Kentucky.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Apr 9, 2009 21:10:21 GMT -5
Does anyone have any data on what must be an astonishing uptick in divorce proceedings in IA, the central front on the War on Marriage? I pray that Iowan heterosexuals are able to protect their marriages from this stunning, brazen attack.
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The Stig
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 2,844
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Post by The Stig on May 5, 2009 12:11:38 GMT -5
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
Posts: 2,431
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Post by Bando on May 5, 2009 12:54:27 GMT -5
Conservatives: Please enjoy your new ally, Marion Barry.
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Boz
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
123 Fireballs!
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Post by Boz on May 5, 2009 12:59:13 GMT -5
Conservatives: Please enjoy your new ally, Marion Barry. Actually, I'm waiting for the President to come out and ask Congress not to approve this. ....Since he campaigned as being opposed to gay marriage and all.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
Posts: 2,431
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Post by Bando on May 5, 2009 13:58:37 GMT -5
Conservatives: Please enjoy your new ally, Marion Barry. Actually, I'm waiting for the President to come out and ask Congress not to approve this. ....Since he campaigned as being opposed to gay marriage and all. Technically, if Congress does nothing, this passes, right? I don't know how Congress or the President is going to resist the temptation to nothing and be praised by their base for it.
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,834
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Post by thebin on May 6, 2009 9:33:33 GMT -5
Conservatives: Please enjoy your new ally, Marion Barry. Nice try Bando but it is not for Conservatives to address this issue, the issue being that homophobia is the largely unchalleneged mainstream position within African American culture. Sort of like the Democratic party is the unchallenged political party of said group. It will be interesting indeed how you propose to make that a Conservative's albatross. Oh, is that one of those things we are not allowed to talk about?
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
Posts: 2,431
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Post by Bando on May 6, 2009 9:47:16 GMT -5
Conservatives: Please enjoy your new ally, Marion Barry. Nice try Bando but it is not for Conservatives to address this issue, the issue being that homophobia is the largely unchalleneged mainstream position within African American culture. Sort of like the Democratic party is the unchallenged political party of said group. It will be interesting indeed how you propose to make that a Conservative's albatross. Oh, is that one of those things we are not allowed to talk about? No, but the Council is majority black, and all the other African-American council members voted aye. I'm sorry if that conflicts with your thesis.
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,834
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Post by thebin on May 6, 2009 10:13:37 GMT -5
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,834
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Post by thebin on May 6, 2009 10:15:18 GMT -5
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Post by strummer8526 on May 6, 2009 10:20:58 GMT -5
Conservatives: Please enjoy your new ally, Marion Barry. Nice try Bando but it is not for Conservatives to address this issue, the issue being that homophobia is the largely unchalleneged mainstream position within African American culture. Sort of like the Democratic party is the unchallenged political party of said group. It will be interesting indeed how you propose to make that a Conservative's albatross. Oh, is that one of those things we are not allowed to talk about? Ya gotta love wild hypocrisy. A culture originating from a time of oppression embracing the condemnation and denial of rights of others. I'm also pretty sure that homophobia is better referred to as "ignorance" and "bias," rather than "culture."
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,834
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Post by thebin on May 6, 2009 11:07:40 GMT -5
Nice try Bando but it is not for Conservatives to address this issue, the issue being that homophobia is the largely unchalleneged mainstream position within African American culture. Sort of like the Democratic party is the unchallenged political party of said group. It will be interesting indeed how you propose to make that a Conservative's albatross. Oh, is that one of those things we are not allowed to talk about? Ya gotta love wild hypocrisy. A culture originating from a time of oppression embracing the condemnation and denial of rights of others. I'm also pretty sure that homophobia is better referred to as "ignorance" and "bias," rather than "culture." I don't understand this particular semantic hair splitting- something I'm usually all for. This "ignorance" in question is a part of the culture. You are not assuming only good traits are ingrained in a "culture" are you?
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Post by strummer8526 on May 6, 2009 11:16:44 GMT -5
Ya gotta love wild hypocrisy. A culture originating from a time of oppression embracing the condemnation and denial of rights of others. I'm also pretty sure that homophobia is better referred to as "ignorance" and "bias," rather than "culture." I don't understand this particular semantic hair splitting- something I'm usually all for. This "ignorance" in question is a part of the culture. You are not assuming only good traits are ingrained in a "culture" are you? No, and I realized after posting that my point was somewhere between unclear and nonsensical. But I was too lazy to fix it. I guess a better way of putting my point is that (1) assuming their are non-hypocritical African Americans who support gay rights (and there appear to be 12 on the DC Council), then it is insulting and inaccurate to peg homophobia as an aspect of a "black culture," OR (2) to the extent that homophobia is still a part of African American culture, it shows a serious flaw in that culture—a downright lack of principle concerning what "equality" should mean. To argue that modern day discrimination against gays is any different than modern day discrimination against blacks is some kind of logical gymnastics that I don't think the average homophobic African American has performed. I think the beliefs are rooted more in ignorance than any kind of logic, or even religious foundation.
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
Posts: 2,431
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Post by Bando on May 6, 2009 11:34:46 GMT -5
Bin, that's great and all, but it doesn't change that 6 of the 7 black council members voted for it, the black mayor is going to sign it, and the black delegate is going to push it through Congress. I'm not denying that homophobia is a problem in the black community, but black homophobia isn't a monolith, and most of the politicians supporting this are black. The protests of a minister from freaking Bowie notwithstanding.
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thebin
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,834
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Post by thebin on May 6, 2009 11:45:10 GMT -5
Bin, that's great and all, but it doesn't change that 6 of the 7 black council members voted for it, the black mayor is going to sign it, and the black delegate is going to push it through Congress. I'm not denying that homophobia is a problem in the black community, but black homophobia isn't a monolith, and most of the politicians supporting this are black. The protests of a minister from freaking Bowie notwithstanding. I'm glad to see that these pols have risen above the prejudices of a large majority of their constituents in this case because I agree with this one. It doesn't change the reality that the clergyman ( I have trouble using the term "reverend") from Bowie was factually speaking correct in this case in that the council does NOT speak for Black DCers by and large. The numbers in the California Prop 8 case, large as that sample set is, are particularly compelling. Look- you don't deny that homophobia is a problem rampant in the black community....fine. All I'm saying is then for someone of your political bent, it was throwing stones in a glass house to try to hang one of the mainstream black Dems on us. Berry's position is not extreme, it is the normal black american position.
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afirth
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 289
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Post by afirth on May 6, 2009 12:03:05 GMT -5
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Bando
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
I've got some regrets!
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Post by Bando on May 6, 2009 12:55:19 GMT -5
Bin, that's great and all, but it doesn't change that 6 of the 7 black council members voted for it, the black mayor is going to sign it, and the black delegate is going to push it through Congress. I'm not denying that homophobia is a problem in the black community, but black homophobia isn't a monolith, and most of the politicians supporting this are black. The protests of a minister from freaking Bowie notwithstanding. I'm glad to see that these pols have risen above the prejudices of a large majority of their constituents in this case because I agree with this one. It doesn't change the reality that the clergyman ( I have trouble using the term "reverend") from Bowie was factually speaking correct in this case in that the council does NOT speak for Black DCers by and large. The numbers in the California Prop 8 case, large as that sample set is, are particularly compelling. Look- you don't deny that homophobia is a problem rampant in the black community....fine. All I'm saying is then for someone of your political bent, it was throwing stones in a glass house to try to hang one of the mainstream black Dems on us. Berry's position is not extreme, it is the normal black american position. And what I'm saying is that there's no "normal" black American position, because the black community doesn't have a hive-mind. Do you have any polling data about black opinion in DC on this, or are you just guessing? DC Council members are still politicians, if their constituents were howling about this, I doubt they'd try to spite them.
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Post by AustinHoya03 on May 6, 2009 13:13:03 GMT -5
No, and I realized after posting that my point was somewhere between unclear and nonsensical. But I was too lazy to fix it. I guess a better way of putting my point is that (1) assuming their are non-hypocritical African Americans who support gay rights (and there appear to be 12 on the DC Council), then it is insulting and inaccurate to peg homophobia as an aspect of a "black culture," OR (2) to the extent that homophobia is still a part of African American culture, it shows a serious flaw in that culture—a downright lack of principle concerning what "equality" should mean. To argue that modern day discrimination against gays is any different than modern day discrimination against blacks is some kind of logical gymnastics that I don't think the average homophobic African American has performed. I think the beliefs are rooted more in ignorance than any kind of logic, or even religious foundation. Good rule! Let's see how else history can make people hypocritical: Polish immigrants who support the Iraq war? Hypocrites. Women who voted against Hillary? Hypocrites. People from the American South who advocate for a stronger federal government? Hypocrites. I think that the views of many black Americans who are against gay marriage have more to do with what their pastors say than with pondering their family history. I am all for laws allowing gay marriage, but let's not pretend everyone against them is blindly homophobic and only holds those views because they have not thought them through.
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