Round Pegs Square Holes

[calhoya]

While jogging in Vegas yesterday, I listened to one of the sports "wise guys" on talk radio. They discussed NCAAMB and FWIW I thought he made some interesting points about the Hoyas. He said that the Hoyas were one of the worst bets in Vegas this year because of the following reasons: the team has only one starter playing his natural position and that is Wright; pointed out that the Princeton offense requires more patience and basketball smarts than most other systems and that these two traits are not usually associated with young players; mentioned that the Hoyas offense is predicated on having at least two consistent outside shooters on the floor at all times and said that they have at best only two on the team and both--Summers and Freeman--play out of position; and, thinks that Monroe has great athleticism, but is even less aggressive around the basket than Hibbert and will need to improve mindset if he is to play at next level. Finally, said that JT III has spent the whole season trying to fit round pegs into square holes because of unexpected transfers and recruting losses. Felt that the team should have been a much more uptempo team this year and played more aggressive full court defense, but did not have the depth to do either for any length of time. Loves Hollis Thompson and had watched him play on the West Coast several times, but said the team will be very weak at the guard position next year, without another recruit who can shoot.

[the_way]

Out of all of our starters, Wright fits the offense the least. He has made adjustments to his game througout the course of the year, and as of late, has come on strong.

Monroe is not a great athlete. He is a decent athlete, not a great one.

Freeman does not play out of position. he is a G/F, which he has played throughout the year.

Summers doesn't have a position. He isn't a natural 3 given his limited offensive moves. And he isn't a natural 4.

This team is not built for full-court press defense. They can barely play half-court defense.

Its not a round peg square hole thing.

Guys just have to learn how to play together on both ends onf the court and function as a unit. And given the turnover and youth on this team, its hard to do that in one season. And given that most of our guys are offensive minded, they stilll have bad habits that they need to break, like not going off first instinct to shoot the ball right away, but instead trust the offense and the teammates.

Its coming together, slowly but surely.

People want to compare us to the UCONN team of two years ago that didn't make the tournament but are now world-beaters?

I don't know.

We may be more like Jay Wright's Villanova first big recruiting class. It took them 3-4 years, missing NCAA's, to finally fulfill their great potential.

Hopefully it won't take that long.

But, we really are rebuilding instead of re-loading. And that goes to show you that we are still growring as a program as well.

[Filo]

Thing is, you can fit a round peg in a square hole pretty easily. A square peg in a round hole? That's a different story...

[kellycpcm]

Interesting take. We do need some guards for next year. I asked JTIII why he didn't recruit more guards last spring and his take was the good ones are coming in 2010 and he was saving scholies for then. We really need to get a good 2 guard who can dribble and break the press. We also need a banger, which was quite evident on tuesday night. Our guys are young and lack time in the weight room. We are playing against a lot of upper classmen who are men, not teenagerts.

HOYA SAXA

[summersshowers]

Mar 5, 2009 9:01:03 GMT -5 Filo said:

Thing is, you can fit a round peg in a square hole pretty easily. A square peg in a round hole? That's a different story...

well, it's really all a function of circumference versus length...

[theyellofallyells]

That's what she said

[HoyasAreHungry]

lol

[SFHoya99]

I think there's something to the youth comment, but I think people way overestimate "fit" sometimes. Fit is important, but style of play fit is somewhat overrated.

Jeff Green was a perfect fit, but so is Greg Monroe (he's just younger and with no Roy Hibbert).

Jon Wallace was a great fit.

Roy Hibbert? About the exact opposite of a traditional Princeton center. But because he chose to fit within his role, he became a tremendous player because he complemented the Princeton instead of conflicting.

Pat Ewing? Not a great fit with the Princeton. Again, though, he chose to focus on defense, rebounding, play his role and he was a necessary complement for a winning team.

When everyone buys in and the team gets experience together, a player like Chris will be like Will Venable up at Princeton -- his penetration and fast break skills will complement the rest of the game instead of detracting.

I really don't think the team can ever reach its ultimate potential without having a few players that don't fit, skills/game wise but learn to use those skills within the team concept to enhance what's already out there.

Like the need for a big banger, sometimes you need to recruit players who don't "fit" skills-wise, but do personality-wise.

[Dhall]

Anyone who thinks this team should have run more does not know what they are talking about. This has been about the worst fast-breaking team I have ever seen. Maybe someone actually keeps the statistic, but I'd guess we score on something like 30% of fast breaks during the Big East season, including where we have a one or two man advantage.

[hoyalawyer]

This team should have run more . . . run the offense more that is . . .

-Lawyer

[dungeon ball]

Mar 5, 2009 10:10:01 GMT -5 theyellofallyells said:

That's what she said

wow... that was almost gift wrapped.

[tal1286]

the basketball analysis aside, this guy probably loses his shirt gambling.

[NCHoya]

I was thinking the other day exactly what SF wrote, Hibbert was far from a natural "fit" in the Princeton system and yet we can all say he was a very valuable offensive player for us. The whole "fit" argument is interesting.

A month ago, I was adamant that Wright would never fit in the system and he was detracting from the offense instead of making it better. However, now after the last 3 weeks or so, I can honestly say I envision Chris being the catalyst of this offense for the next 2 years. He has played very well and yet my fear he would become a shoot first, pass last point guard was completely off-base. It just seems, like Chris, the young guys need to find their "fit" in the system.

Above all else, the Princeton offense really tries to 1) use a defense's aggressiveness against itself and 2) Find the best shot available. Those are the two tenents of our offense that can flow through any type of player - a banger, a combo guard, a tweener, whoever. That is what these guys need to learn and buy into. I saw progress in February that gives me hope for next season.

The comment about playing a pressing full-court defense was a thought I had back in October, but that would have been disasterous. We would have given up so many lay-ups and lost our patience when in the half-court offense. To combine our offense and a full court press is very difficult, two completely different mind-sets, skill-sets and speeds. That would take a very experienced, smart team. I would not mind showing it for a few stretches once in a while, especially when Clark and Julian are in the game, but overall not the defense for guys liek Summers, Freeman, etc.

[summersshowers]

Mar 5, 2009 15:10:57 GMT -5 dungeon ball said:

Mar 5, 2009 10:10:01 GMT -5 theyellofallyells said:

That's what she said

wow... that was almost gift wrapped.

hence the ellipsis.

[paranoya]

Mar 5, 2009 14:36:00 GMT -5 Dhall said:

Anyone who thinks this team should have run more does not know what they are talking about. This has been about the worst fast-breaking team I have ever seen. Maybe someone actually keeps the statistic, but I'd guess we score on something like 30% of fast breaks during the Big East season, including where we have a one or two man advantage.

I said to someone the other day that I laugh when someone acts like this team should have pushed the tempo more because we haven proven we can not finish fast breaks with any sort of regularity.

Also completely agree that we need players to just complement the system and not necessarily everyone has to be tailor made for it. Roy and Pat were great examples of how to take players who seemingly go against the grain and using their strengths to help strengthen the weaknesses of the players who "fit" and of the system in general. That's why I'm hoping we get Latavious Williams for next year.

[arlingtonhoya05]

Make that 8 Big East games this season where we have failed to score 60 points

[hometownhoya89]

the #1 reason why we were an idiotic team to pick was:

we had THREE of our eleven players (sapp, summers, freeman) with ANY big east experience.

and we're playing in the big east, the year we had approximately no_one declare early.

league experience.........no league experience............ hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[mrsixer123]

48 points against pathetic depaul!!!!!! Take off the blinders people. The P offense "system" is pathetic with this group of players. Great coaches adapt to their current group of players or they get players to fit their system.

All of his III's top div 1 success has come with one group of players. Can he duplicate that success with a different group of players?

[Loyal Hoya]

mrsixer,

what offense should we have run with this group of players? the motion? the flex? the swing? what about that particular offensive system would have showcased this group of players better? when should the coaching staff have instituted the different offensive system? at the beginning of the year? when things started going south at mid-season?

For, the sake of argument I might accept the notion that different offensive systems might better suit some types of players than others, but mostly I think all of the offensive systems can be adapted to a team's personnel. Furthermore, I think the cost in terms of lost practice time of switching your offensive system every couple of years is not worth the benefit. That's way Huggins retained much of Beilein's offense last year. He did not have the time to teach a whole new system.

Finally, I think it is ironic that everybody on the chatboard yesterday complained that the Depaul game looked like an ugly, low scoring Big Ten game when most Big Ten teams run a motion offense (I know that the exceptions are Northwestern who runs the Princeton and Wiscy who runs the swing).

[RDF]

I don't care what offense you run--if your team struggles handling/passing the basketball--you won't function well. I mean you advocates of running more ever watch a Hoya fastbreak? How about the one where Wright throws the ally oop to Summers who is about an inch from rim, there was no spacing whatsoever and it was horrific. Now I understand the Hoyas don't practice that--but if you guys are going to say they are being "held back"--at least point out the areas these guys are individually skilled enough to execute what you would like. You can't do the pops--throw it up and go get it approach-because they aren't good rebounders. The "Shooters" on this team are lacking--Wright isn't a great shooter--Freeman turns his body after every shot and doens't square up, and Summers is only guy who is a big time shooter--yet that takes one of the few guys who has body to play down low/compete for rebound 21 feet from basket.

The mistakes/weaknesses of this team can't be fully addressed until after season because coaches/players didn't address them as they should've last year. They've tried on fly and you see how that works.