The team and season

[the_way]

guru,

please, stop stalking me.

thanks.

[Nevada Hoya]

Dan, how could you lock up a thread called Chemistry. I was a chem major at GU too, like enkmd, and have been a research chemist. I can't comment on team chemistry other than in a thread called chemistry. But the thing that did the Hoyas in was that phantom T on Greg. Everything went to h_ll in a handbasket after that.

[Hoya TMF]

Feb 23, 2009 11:53:32 GMT -5 the_way said:

Feb 23, 2009 11:29:55 GMT -5 NCHoya said:

I am going to have to disagree that JT3 is comfortable and used to dealing with the level of talented players he has recently recruited. No where in his past has he had this much talent, and yet for the first time in his career, he is underperforming expectations (even modest ones like just make the NCAAs).

I think that is a clear cause and effect. He needed to be able to get the trust and buy-in from these players to what he was selling when adversity hit, and up until the last few games, he could not. I credit JT3 for trying and looking at everything to get it right, but he has had a rough season. I still appreciate and hugely support JT3, but let's not pretend this season has been a coaching success.

You cannot have a team meltdown last for 5-6 games and say JT3 understood what his players were thinking and what was motivating them.

While the youth argument is compelling, where were the growing pains in November and December? JT3 lost this team, if that is not an example of a mental vs physical issues, than I am not sure what is. JT3 basically admitted to this when he said "this team is in a bad place." It was all mental and he is not great at solving these types of problems yet, he still looks for all the answers in Xs and Os.

I get it, with experience, these guys do not question the system and panic. However, JT3 also contributes to that and he was unable to make that connection with this team until a few games ago.

I'll let you in on a little secret: This team isn't that talented.

Watch the way we play, and then you watch other teams in college basketball around the country, including ones with a majority of youth players.

You will see a big difference.

The youth part is a part of it.

You mention how they played in November and December vs. now? Well, you ever hear about "the wall". Young and inexperienced guys hit "the wall", because they are not used to playing consistently at a high level, AND they aren't used to adversity and knowing how to play through it.

aside from that,

the main thing is that these players are overrated and one-dimensional, and lack any intangibles.

JTIII is actually overachieving with this group.

If you want to blame JTIII for something, blame him for recruiting one-dimensional players and not enough quality depth to fit his program in terms of leadership in the junior and senior classes.

JTIII's players in the past not only had great attitudes and could play with one another, they also did a multitude of things on-the court well. Its hard to defend that type of group. It gives you a lot of options as a coach in terms of rotations and player combinations.

Now, he doesn't have that luxury, and may never get it with this current group. JTIII has tried everything including the kitchen sink with this group.

He reaches the guys. The guys just aren't that good. People get caught up in high-school all-americans, rivals.com, and all that other b.s. about rankings. Instead of just watching the players play on the court.

Looking at this team, and looking at JTIII's previous 4 teams, this is the most talent deficient team he has had. Where are the defenders? Where is the interior defense? Where is the rebounding? Where is the post-up presence? Where is the quality depth? Where is the chemistry on the court?

Folks talk about talent. Talented teams have some of those qualities i just mentioned. We don't.

We aren't a competitive team unless we can shoot 3's well. We have shown some fight in these last couple of games. Guys are learning how to play with some more heart instead of totally collapsing. At the same time, they still are limited from a talent standpoint. We still cannot defend.

Alot of folks here dump on the_way for his negativity, but there is a lot of truth in his statements. I look at our team and I don't see alot of players who do any one thing really well. and I'm sure we can look at stats, but the eye test counts for a lot.

Besides chris do we have a good penetrator? no.

Do we have any exceptional passers? no one passes consistently well except greg. chris and jessie have their moments, but they are hardly steve nash or even tory jackson out there.

Do we have any shooters? no. austin has the prettiest shot i've ever seen, when it goes in. still, we don't have anyone like jon wallace who can be relied upon to stretch the defense because his outside shot must be respected even in a game where its not going in.

Do we have any post players? no. greg has struggled mightily against the more physical teams in the league. and we can't even take advantage of smaller teams like marquette.

Do we have any finishers? a resounding no. summers and austin are supposed to be our slashers, but how many lay-ups have they missed? how many dunks has the entire team missed this season? how many times have our guys stepped on the baseline while attempting to drive to the hole?

Do we have any rebounders? Absolutely not.

Do we have any shot blockers? We have Henry, but he doesn't play well enough offensively to stay in and be a game changer inside.

Do we have a defensive stopper? Sometimes it seems like no one on the team wants to play defense at all. Last year we had Roy inside and Jeremiah on the perimeter.

Do we have an intagibles guy? Honestly, I thought Jessie would be this guy, but his struggles this season have been well documented. Summers was that guy early on, but has regressed. Chris' one man gang at Syracuse suggests that there are better days ahead, but no other candidates have stepped up. How many people made game-saving or game-winning plays last year. I count at least six (Jon @ Marq, Roy v. Conn, Jeremiah v. Cuse, Jessie & Pat @ WVU). Maybe we haven't even been in position for those types of moments this season, but we just don't seem to have a big play guy on our roster except for Chris (maybe).

I am as optimistic as they come, but objectively, we are missing a lot of pieces that good teams need to have. No doubt, there are good teams missing some of these pieces. UNC doesn't have much shot blocking and their defensive stopper is injured. Pitt doesn't really have a lights out shooter. Marquette has not offensive of defensive big man. We are missing too many of these pieces though. Our guys are talented, or at least were talented recruits. Still, looking at our team over the course of the season, its clear that we don't have anyone that is really good at one thing, let alone possesses the type of versatility that we hoped for. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I don't think the_way is totally off base when he suggests that we aren't as talented as we think.

[Dhall]

I agree with almost all of these conclusions, but you neglect to mention Ewing, Jr. from last year. He pretty much did everything very well even though he might not have been the best at anything. Explains why he won the "6th man" award and is a borderline NBA player right now after being drafted among the top 50 players eligible. I'd say his contributions really won us a couple games last year, not just the West Virginia block. Does Reggie Williams have a son?

[swhoya]

Hoya TMF,

I have no problems with any of your conclusions. Where I differ (at least with the_way) is how different this team is from Jeff & Co when they came in. Take everything you know about what those guys became, and ask yourself those same questions about those guys as freshmen. There was a lot of potential there, and maybe you might have a few affirmative answers for a couple of your questions, but on the by and large the answer would still be "no."

That's my problem with the negativity towards this team. Will this team ever be as good as those teams? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else does either, although I will say that by Jeff's sophomore season, that team was GOOD. This team will have to progress a lot to get there. But the problem is that everyone here is dumping on this team for not being the same team that we were the last few years, which is a completely unfair comparison. Yes, this team is not as good, but if you expect a top-10 season every year, you're going to be disappointed more often than not.

And I think it's ridiculous to claim that this team or any other can't fill out and develop skills they don't have right now. Again, it's not the pointing out of deficiencies that bothers me, but people acting like Jeff and Co were always studs and the assertions that this team will never be good.

[Hoya TMF]

I don't disagree with you either. Its hard to say whether the expectations were unfounded or not. There was a lot of chatter on this board about how we were going to be good this year because of we had so many great recruits. People said freshman Greg was better than senior Roy and Sophmore Chris was better than senior Jon. In fact, some thought Wallace might get benched for Wright. Those folks were obviously wrong. Still, its hard not to have high expectations when you think you have a great coach and a top-ten recruiting class. Now that the season is more than halfway over, I think we are realizing its not that simple. Also, I think there is a greater sense of urgency with "better" talent, because there is a smaller window for success. If Greg stays for a second year, the assumption is that it will be his last. That sort of raises the sense of urgency for fans with high expectations. Bottom line, regardless of expectations, its been a frustrating season. Here's hoping we turn it around on Saturday.

[DanMcQ]

Feb 26, 2009 15:44:51 GMT -5 Nevada Hoya said:

Dan, how could you lock up a thread called Chemistry.

Think of it as my special payback for Organic Chemistry, lo these many years ago.

[mrsixer123]

the failures of this season are because of one person and one person. JT III!!!!!!!!!!!!

III did are HORRIBLE job managing egos and defining players roles PRIOR to the seaon. Case in point, if jessie knew from day 1 his exact role on the team he would not have responded the way he did when he realized he was not going to be "the man," and instead he would be the floor leader/glue guy. If the senior on the team on the team did not know his role, no wonder all the locker room issues occured. III has back to back BE titles and a FF on his resume so obviously can coach. The question he must now answer is can he adapt not only his style of play, but can he improve on his communication skills with his players when it comes to blending guys together.

[daytonahoya31]

c'mon Sixer,

So it's JTIII's fault that Jessie went off the deep end? I don't buy that for a minute...not a second

Nobody can define a role at the beginning of the season because roles change according to team needs.

Did Patrick balk at being benched last season? Of course he did. But he sucked it up, did what he had to do and became one of the best sixth men in college basketball last year.

Jessie had the chance to do the same thing. Instead he took it in the other direction, and we as a team are still reeling from that and everything that spawned from that

[mrsixer123]

"So it's JTIII's fault that Jessie went off the deep end? I don't buy that for a minute...not a second"

Jessie is the lone senior who was named captain and then benched b/c the young all americans can't stand the princeton O and our prized "big man" refuses to be a big man. as a result, the team struggled and III panicked. Jessie is not the problem, imo

[daytonahoya31]

He was also the main instigator and aggressor in the defining chemistry moment of the season. He was also not playing well in the first place. He was also the one to publicly challenge the coach when he pulled his five starters in the cincy game.

Now to his credit, he's played better as of late. But at this point, his actions had a huge role in derailing what was once a promising season

[richfame]

MR SIXER- The problem is people marry jt3 with his system..

JT3 IS a great coach although its my assertion that the PRINCETOWN O is not the right fit for thsi group of guys. The offense worked well with our final four team cause we have the ulitmate man for that system, jeff green and we had the 3 point shooting in wallace. The system was further ROIDED by a competant nba big man in roy hibbert!!

JT3 must prove he can adapt his offense to the players that we have and utilize there strengths. Our two impact players are chris wright and greg monroe. CW has to be able to slach to the basket and kick for open 3 if nothing is open. All greg must get ample amount of touchs in the paint not 15 feet from the basket, hes 6 10 and has a beautiful hook shot. If he gets doubled kick out for a 3..

While i dont belive offense is our bigget problem i do agree it should be tinkered to our teams strenghts

[the_way]

Feb 26, 2009 22:07:35 GMT -5 richfame said:

MR SIXER- The problem is people marry jt3 with his system..

JT3 IS a great coach although its my assertion that the PRINCETOWN O is not the right fit for thsi group of guys. The offense worked well with our final four team cause we have the ulitmate man for that system, jeff green and we had the 3 point shooting in wallace. The system was further ROIDED by a competant nba big man in roy hibbert!!

JT3 must prove he can adapt his offense to the players that we have and utilize there strengths. Our two impact players are chris wright and greg monroe. CW has to be able to slach to the basket and kick for open 3 if nothing is open. All greg must get ample amount of touchs in the paint not 15 feet from the basket, hes 6 10 and has a beautiful hook shot. If he gets doubled kick out for a 3..

While i dont belive offense is our bigget problem i do agree it should be tinkered to our teams strenghts

Why should JTIII adapt his offense, when the players don't run it in the 1st place.

When was the last time you saw the Hoya/Princeton offense on full display besides just jacking up 3's.

Our offense now is toss and swing the ball around the 3-pt. line until somebody is open and just chuck it. No cutting, no great movement without the ball, no great ball movement, no communication, etc.

So, the players don't adhere to a structured system. What offense can JTIII implement when his players won't adhere to one to begin with and constantly get trigger happy behind the arc?

and when has Greg been an impact player for us this year? this team is begging for him to make an impact.

Chris is not an impact player either. Chris is trying to become an impact player since nobody else is stepping up to the plate.

Its not like he can bench these guys either because there isn't anybody remotely better to fill in and keep the team semi-competitive. And the players know this. If somebody was pressing them in practice maybe they would shape up.

JTIII has his hands tied right now. There isn't much he can do.

[bmartin]

Against major opponents (Big East + Tennessee, Maryland, Memphis, Duke):

When Summers and Freeman have combined for 30 points or more, GU is 5-3
All the good wins - Maryland, Memphis, UConn, Providence, Syracuse;
and the three best offensive efforts among the losses - at Duke, at Marquette, at Syracuse.

When Summers and Freeman scored less than 30 points, GU is 2-9.
The only wins were Rutgers and South Florida.

[professorhoya]

I see a lot of finger pointing (at basically everyone, players, coaches) which usually means you can't place your finger on the problem.

I'll just say that we did have a really good team this year but their was a Collapse. I've seen teams with alot less talent then this go further in the NCAA tournament. It's not an issue of Talent or athletic ability or skill or coaching.

[cnyhoya]

Good points all.

What is interesting to me, as a fan of both the coach and the program, is to what degree JTIII is associated with "the system" of offense he prefers. I hope not to strongly.

To a casual observer, it might easily be inferred that the JTIII system can work amazingly well with one group of players (witness the Final Four season), and cause a different group of players to implode, and grossly underachieve (witness now).

I don't know if that is true at all, and at most, it is a gross over-simplification, but, as a fan, I don't like to think we will have a program that could be basically hit or miss!

I am hoping that this years experience will lead to adjustments in the coaching and/or recruiting so that we can either adapt the system or get the right players for it.

[mississippihoya]

I'm pretty willing to chalk this season's performance up to youth/inexperience. I think whoever it was that first said that our early successes distorted our expectations of this team had it right. If anything, I think they were a great indicator of how talented this team is, and what it will one day be capable of with work/practice/experience/conditioning/etc.

I wouldn't go so far as to start questioning coach or his system or whatever unless this sort of performance was turned out by a team experienced in both the system and big east basketball. We saw what such an experienced team under JTIII is capable of over the past two seasons.

I mean really, do yall remember how you felt about this team's potential before the season started? I was excited as anyone with the new look it would have, but I didn't expect great things. 7th in the BE (with as much talent as the league has), felt about right to me whenever it came out.

[bigtymehoya]

Feb 26, 2009 20:45:43 GMT -5 mrsixer123 said:

"So it's JTIII's fault that Jessie went off the deep end? I don't buy that for a minute...not a second"

Jessie is the lone senior who was named captain and then benched b/c the young all americans can't stand the princeton O and our prized "big man" refuses to be a big man. as a result, the team struggled and III panicked. Jessie is not the problem, imo

I agree with this 100%. These players do not run the Princeton O. Moreover, I don't think we have terrible shooters--we just take terrible shots. John Wallace shot so well because most of his shots were uncontested. If the offense was run properly, our shots would be so much better.

Moreover, what senior wouldn't expect to be "the man" when he returned to a team as the lone impact senior. Instead, JT3 took the ball out of Sapp's hands and gave it to Chris. I know most of you on here LOVE some CW, but he is not the right fit for this offense because he refuses to run it. JT3 should have sat him a long time ago until Wright decided to buy into the offense. That, I believe, was also part of the problem. How do we bench our lone senior but not the AWOL Wright?? Just because Chris gets his points by driving to the basket does not mean the offense is run better through his hands.

Simply put: JT3 should have forced Chris to learn the offense before giving him the PG duties. Ashanti Cook would never come out the game when Wallace was a freshman. Then Wallace showed Sapp how to run the offense. Sapp should have been allowed to run the offense this year if only so that Wright could learn by example. This season, however, Wright was given the ball and allowed to make too many mistakes on the court, while Sapp was benched for far too long. That took away from the natural order of things: senior teaching the underclassman. This is a JT3 mistake and he should not adapt a system that works simply because he has new players.

[sleepy]

I wonder if any of you even know what the "princeton" offense is. From every thing I have seen this season the offense has been fine, and we HAVE been running the offense. Just because there aren't that many backcourt cuts doesn't mean its not the offense. Just because there is more driving doesn't mean its not the offense we want to run. How can you honestly say Sapp deserved to be playing over Wright? While Wright was making mistakes, but you have to expect that from a first year player in the Big East. Sapp was making just as many selfish mistakes, taking bad forced shots, and hurting team chemsitry. JTIII should have benched Sapp a lot earlier than he did, maybe then we wouldn't be in this huge mess.

Also, anyone who thinks the offense is the problem of this team is certifiably insane. Our offense is better than it was last year.

[bigtymehoya]

First off, I never said that Sapp deserved to be playing over Wright. Rather, I believe Wright should not have been handed the PG duties until he learned how to run the offense properly during in-game situations.

Moreover, Sleepy, I wonder if YOU know what the Princeton Offense is. After all, you do think that our offense is better this year than it was last year. Please stop it.