we aren't as talented as we think...

[the_way]

i think that is the true source of fans frustration with our struggles.

the thing is, they don't even know it.

its the reason why folks can't put a finger on what is going wrong with this team.

why can't they?

denial.

i'll give you an example.

take the Maryland basketball team. they aren't doing so well this year. but, nobody is surprised. the actual angst over there in terp land, is why Gary doesn't have better talent on the roster. nobody is complaining about an offensive scheme, defensive scheme, effort, leadership, confidence etc., etc. do you know why? all of that is a moot point because they know they are limited from a personnel standpoint.

and i know folks don't want to hear it, but its the same case with our beloved Hoyas?

Lately, we have been hearing the cry for yesteryear of the players who brought out us NCAA tournaments, Sweet sixteens, and Final for during the JTIII era. And yes those guys had the intangibles. Intrinsic qualities rivals and scout.com can't measure with their number-crunching and stat geek evaluations. And yes some of those players had limitations in their respective games, and lacked the accolades that our current 2008-2009 hoyas, have.

But....

That previous group was more talented than this group.

Here is why...

Our players this year are one-dimensional.

The previous group of players?

Green - could play the 5, 4, or 3, and be a facilitator in the offense
Wallace - could play the 1 or 2, could he run the offense or make the clutch shot when needed in crunch time or pick up the scoring load when the were backtracking offensively
Hibbert - not just a defensive presence, but good passer within the scheme of the offense, could post up, etc.
Owens - could play the 2 or the 3, could start or be the sixth man
Ewing, Jr. - could play the 3 or the 4, play the finesse game on the outside or take it strong on the inside, could start or come off the bench and be the sixth man
A Cook - could play the 1 or 2
Bowman - could play the 3 or 4

now compare that with our current group

Monroe - great passer
Freeman - scorer
Wright - scorer
Summers - scorer
Sapp - ??
Clark - raw player, good in spot duty, but limited on a lot of fronts
Sims - too much of a project to consistently contribute on both ends
Vaughn - spot-duty reserve
Nikita & Omar - good reserves, but not too many options with them either.

Now you are seeing the problem.

Its not the princeton offense. People can defend us now because our best players are one-dimensional. Now, if I, a fan see this, what do you think opposing teams in the big-east can see?

In our past regime, III had so many options and combinations he could use with the players because they were multi-talented. Add the intangibles they also brough to the table, and we had a special era with a special group.

[HoyasAreHungry]

if what you are saying is correct and they are one dimensional scorers....the princeton offense should put up 100 points a game while we still lose cuz we give up 120.......You're saying the reason people can defend us is because they are all scorers?...no sense. sorry but the argument is weak. And if you think that we have less "talent" than those teams....wow. Of course we can't pinpoint what is going on..It's so crazy because of the players we DO have. Those wins early on in the season are not flukes....we were taking it to Duke before we got jobbed. I just disagree completely with this

[GUJook97]

If Sapp and Summers were having the years you would expect from 3rd or 4th year players, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

I hardly see how Roy Hibbert was better than Greg Monroe as a freshman, and I hardly see how Wallace was that much better than Wright as a Sophmore.

The difference is that we had a special, special player in Green. To me, that's it.

[summersshowers]

i believe we were big east champs and a 2 seed in the tourney without that special, special player named green. granted, i never thought we could win it all last year, whereas two years ago i thought we were one of the top 3-4 teams in the country, mostly because we had jeff.

as far as this argument goes, yea, seems like a stretch all around. not buying it.

[guru]

Feb 11, 2009 9:36:21 GMT -5 the_way said:

i think that is the true source of fans frustration with our struggles.

the thing is, they don't even know it.

its the reason why folks can't put a finger on what is going wrong with this team.

why can't they?

denial.

i'll give you an example.

take the Maryland basketball team. they aren't doing so well this year. but, nobody is surprised. the actual angst over there in terp land, is why Gary doesn't have better talent on the roster. nobody is complaining about an offensive scheme, defensive scheme, effort, leadership, confidence etc., etc. do you know why? all of that is a moot point because they know they are limited from a personnel standpoint.

and i know folks don't want to hear it, but its the same case with our beloved Hoyas?

Lately, we have been hearing the cry for yesteryear of the players who brought out us NCAA tournaments, Sweet sixteens, and Final for during the JTIII era. And yes those guys had the intangibles. Intrinsic qualities rivals and scout.com can't measure with their number-crunching and stat geek evaluations. And yes some of those players had limitations in their respective games, and lacked the accolades that our current 2008-2009 hoyas, have.

But....

That previous group was more talented than this group.

Here is why...

Our players this year are one-dimensional.

The previous group of players?

Green - could play the 5, 4, or 3, and be a facilitator in the offense
Wallace - could play the 1 or 2, could he run the offense or make the clutch shot when needed in crunch time or pick up the scoring load when the were backtracking offensively
Hibbert - not just a defensive presence, but good passer within the scheme of the offense, could post up, etc.
Owens - could play the 2 or the 3, could start or be the sixth man
Ewing, Jr. - could play the 3 or the 4, play the finesse game on the outside or take it strong on the inside, could start or come off the bench and be the sixth man
A Cook - could play the 1 or 2
Bowman - could play the 3 or 4

now compare that with our current group

Monroe - great passer
Freeman - scorer
Wright - scorer
Summers - scorer
Sapp - ??
Clark - raw player, good in spot duty, but limited on a lot of fronts
Sims - too much of a project to consistently contribute on both ends
Vaughn - spot-duty reserve
Nikita & Omar - good reserves, but not too many options with them either.

Now you are seeing the problem.

Its not the princeton offense. People can defend us now because our best players are one-dimensional. Now, if I, a fan see this, what do you think opposing teams in the big-east can see?

In our past regime, III had so many options and combinations he could use with the players because they were multi-talented. Add the intangibles they also brough to the table, and we had a special era with a special group.

Way, you've been surprisingly lucid lately, but you're just wrong here. This team has talent - there may be a few players who aren't playing up to their billing (I'm looking at you Freeman and Wright), but even those players are still very talented. I wish the answer was as easy as "we're just not as talented as we think," but whatever has gone wrong with this team is more complicated than that, I think.

Still time to turn it around - we're rolling downhill toward Syracuse Saturday at this point, so how about some optimism? IF (big if, admittedly) they win on Saturday, they are still squarely on the right side of the bubble, and will put themselves in position to rebound down the stretch and save the season.

[richfame]

GUJOOK- Id take wallace over wright in any year. Its not even close...

[jgalt]

you continue to prove me and many on this board right theway

[the_way]

yep, denial

first step in solving the problem, is realizing you have one.

JTIII needs to get out and recruit better OR make these guys more than one-dimensional players that can play as a cohesive unit and instill intangibles in them that some simply don't have.

the former is the only possibility.

[Filo]

1. It has nothing to do with talent.

2. It has everything to do with experience and intangibles (like buying into the system, confidence, trusting your teammates).

3. There is less disappointment than at Maryland because Terp fans know they don't have a lot of talent.

4. Most people aren't crying out for yesteryear's players; they are seeking to find explanations as to why this team has been unable to get it done by comparing players and teams, which is entirely reasonable.

5. In order to make your point, you use one-word descriptors for the current players (Monroe is just a passer, huh?) vs. flowery homages to previous players. Nothing like setting up your point with some biased arguments. The current players HAVE THE TALENT to do many of the things the previous players did. They just aren't doing it. THAT IS WHY IT IS SO FRUSTRATING.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

This team has amazing talent basketball wise. They're just undisciplined. That is the problem right there. Discipline. Our team has none.

[TBird41]

Feb 11, 2009 9:42:05 GMT -5 GUJook97 said:

If Sapp and Summers were having the years you would expect from 3rd or 4th year players, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

I hardly see how Roy Hibbert was better than Greg Monroe as a freshman, and I hardly see how Wallace was that much better than Wright as a Sophmore.

The difference is that we had a special, special player in Green. To me, that's it.

I think the comparison is Roy=Sims, Greg=Jeff (That special, special player couldn't lead the Hoyas to the tournament as a freshman, of course, Monroe hasn't yet / might not lead this team to the tournament as a freshman either).

Aside from that, I think you're very much on point here.

[theyellofallyells]

I completely disagree...we are a very talented team...I will say that you are kind of right with the whole intangibles thing...but hey we are talking about freshmen and sophomores running a highly effective and complex offense that they are just figuring out...it happens. We will get better (but probably not until next season)

I just hope Dajuan comes back...he is going to show people next year that he is a great basketball player.

[kchoya]

how about this:

Monroe - 1/2 season of college b-ball
Freeman - 1 1/2 seasons
Wright - 1 season
Summers - 2 1/2 seasons
Sapp - 3 1/2
Clark - 1/2 season
Sims - 1/2 season
Vaughn - 1 season
Nikita & Omar - 1/2 season each of actually playing

All the people from the past that you listed are viewed in light of 4 years of college ball (or 3 in green's case). That's a flaw in your analysis right there.

The same indictments you make of this young team (which you greatly oversimplify) could be made of the past players. As to Sims, you say "too much of a project to consistently contribute on both ends." That same sentiment was being expressed about Hibbert his first year or two.

Summers and Bowman are very similar players, yet you downgrade one and hype the other. About green you say "could play the 5, 4, or 3, and be a facilitator in the offense" but I would argue the same applies to Monroe.

You're seeing what you want to see. The player's on this team are just as talented as those in the past.

[SFHoya99]

I think the_way is wrong, more or less, but he's right on a certain point.

Our offense is struggling a bit because we lack certain dimensions as a team.

• When no one is hitting outside shots, we lack that dimension
  
• Greg is not the low post player Roy was
  
• We aren't a good fast breaking team and when we're not rebounding/getting turnovers, we don't get the opportunities, either
  
• We don't offensive rebound
  

Which leaves us more or less with driving and cuts as an offense. Which in themselves are much easier to defend when you don't have to worry about offensive boards or threes.

That said, the idea that what this team is capable of is one dimensional is silly.

Aside from Greg/Roy, this team is capable of being better defenders than last year.
This team is capable of being a much better shooting team than they are.
This team is capable of being a much better fast break team.
This team is capable of being a much better rebounding team.

They've shown each of these in spurts. Greg isn't going to be Roy down low, but he brings other things to the table -- mainly up top.

But they have to commit to defense and execution.

[OldHoyafan]

I think the_way has a point here. He is not saying that these guys are not talented, because they are, but they may not be as all around talented as the previous starters. He labeled them as scorers so lets compare. (Summers v Green) Is Summers a better shooter than Green especially from the 3pt line? I say yes. But he is not as talented at scoring inside nor is he as talented at defending and rebounding as Green: Edge to Green. (Freeman v Summers & Ewing) Freeman took over for Ewing(who had taken over for Summers) at the 3 position. Freeman like Summers is supposed to be a pure shooter with a better stroke than Summers and Ewing. He however lacks the speed and size to score inside and rebound and play defense that Ewing did: Edge to Ewing in all around talent and even with Summers as scorer. (Wright v Wallace) Wright has Wallace beat in every physical catagory speed, jumping ability,dribbling and quick feet and hands on defense, but is not the pure shooter that Wallace was, nor does he ,at this point, have the patience to run the offense as did Wallace: Edge to Wallace because of offense run. (Sapp v Sapp ) Sapp at times last year played the 1 and 2 positions. When he played the 2 position ,as he has most of this year, he was the guard who was counted on to go one-on-one and take the ball to the hoop and finish when the clock was winding down or offense was stuck. I believe that is his strength. I have seen very little of that this year. When he was asked to play the 1 position last year with Rivers as the 2, he seemed to be more patient and ran the offense as JT3 wanted. Edge to last years Sapp. (Monroe v Hibbert) Monroe is more talented in all phases than Hibbert, just does not have the strength Hibbert had in the low post as a defensive pressence: Edge to Monroe .
This team obviously has talent, but as we all know players under 6'10" who are All Americans get there because of there ability to score not ability to pass rebound and play defense. What I think the_way is saying is if you recruit guys that are only scorers, you have to balance it out with guys that can pass, rebound and play defense. The players that are only scorers can not all play together at the same time. It looks as if this team now has 3 starters Freeman, Summers and Wright whose main strength is as a scorer, but they are not scoring and are not doing the other all around talent things(passing rebounding and defense) at a level to offset their lack of scoring. When they are scoring as in the Maryland, UConn, Memphis and Syracuse games then the lack of all around talent is hardly noticed, but when they collectively as a group are not scoring it sticks out like Cinnderella in Michael Jordon's.

[GUJook97]

Feb 11, 2009 9:49:37 GMT -5 richfame said:

GUJOOK- Id take wallace over wright in any year. Its not even close...

Fair enough. I respectfully disagree. Wallace was a great player for us, no doubt.

And, yeah, I know we won the BE without Green, but again, it goes to the point that we did it with three seniors.

Go back and crunch numbers re: Hibbert as a frosh and Wallace as frosh/soph. Saying that the current crop isnt as talented as what came in through the past 4-5 years is something I simply dont agree with. And, I will leave it at that.

[the_way]

Precisely, OldHoyafan.

precisely.

[DanMcQ]

Lack of college basketball maturity on the team seems to have a lot to do with it.

This team seems to lack the mentality to roll up their sleeves and put the hard effort into playing solid team defense and running the offense ALL of the time. That is not a knock on them personally and not to say they cannot do it, but they just have not on a consistent basis.

[HoyasAreHungry]

Feb 11, 2009 11:19:01 GMT -5 the_way said:

Precisely, OldHoyafan.

precisely.

that argument that old hoya makes is MUCH more well thought out than "we don't have talent"

[daytonahoya31]

it's not the talent.

everyone should read barker's story in the washington times.

do that, and it sheds a ton of light on our struggles.

it's not the talent

it's not the offense.

it's definitely not the coaching

it's the chemistry and the fact that our two upperclassmen have failed in just about every aspect this season when it comes to leading younger teammates...we are a sailboat without a rudder..