GIGAFAN99
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Feb 8, 2009 13:34:36 GMT -5
Post by GIGAFAN99 on Feb 8, 2009 13:34:36 GMT -5
That's the number of assists this team has...and the number of turnovers.
To give you an idea of how bad this number is, they are currently on pace to record the second fewest assists of any Hoya team this decade. The dubious champion would of course be the "short but slow" 03-04 team that started Courtland Freeman at center.
But outside of the 03-04 debacle, the worst assist/turnover differential since 2000 was -11 in 02-03. A JTIII team has never been worse than +22. Keep playing like the last 7 games, they'll be worse than that as well. The fewest assists/per game? 13.2, again in 03-04. This year we're at 13.9.
So this isn't just "kind of slumping" or "needs a tweaking." This team is running a motion offense that requires sharing the basketball and minimizing mistakes and they're doing it with high-level talent. But right now the lack of sharing the basketball and the volume of mistakes is only surpassed this decade by a team with zero NBA-level players (none taller than 6'8) running a system that emphasizes individuals creating offense.
To say the players haven't bought in might be an understatement right now.
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DanMcQ
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Feb 8, 2009 13:48:43 GMT -5
Post by DanMcQ on Feb 8, 2009 13:48:43 GMT -5
Why do those numbers necessarily suggest the players have not "bought in"?
Why couldn't it simply be that they are not executing the offense as well as they could be?
Why do people always jump to the conclusion that players have some sort of hidden agenda here? Couldn't the answer simply be that the team is very very young and it's a hard offense for the ENTIRE team to learn to run right ALL AT ONCE?
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the_way
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Feb 8, 2009 14:37:40 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Feb 8, 2009 14:37:40 GMT -5
Why do those numbers necessarily suggest the players have not "bought in"? Why couldn't it simply be that they are not executing the offense as well as they could be? Why do people always jump to the conclusion that players have some sort of hidden agenda here? Couldn't the answer simply be that the team is very very young and it's a hard offense for the ENTIRE team to learn to run right ALL AT ONCE? by watching the games. its not a hidden agenda. but the players don't trust it. the shot-selection is atrocious. they chuck up ill-advised 3's before allowing the offense to run. there is no discipline on the players part to adhere to this offense. its not that they are bad character guys. i just think a lot of them have agressive scorer's mentalities. and a scorer's mentality is one-track minded. Greg, Nikita, and Omar on the only guys to seem to stick to the gameplan. the other guys don't have the patience nor the discipline to do so. and that is the reason for the sloppy and disjointed play.
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DanMcQ
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Feb 8, 2009 14:47:06 GMT -5
Post by DanMcQ on Feb 8, 2009 14:47:06 GMT -5
Way: I have no problem with reacting to what is seen on the court. Too many posters here morph that into some sort of character flaw on the part of the players.
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GIGAFAN99
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Feb 8, 2009 14:51:58 GMT -5
Post by GIGAFAN99 on Feb 8, 2009 14:51:58 GMT -5
Why do those numbers necessarily suggest the players have not "bought in"? Why couldn't it simply be that they are not executing the offense as well as they could be? Why do people always jump to the conclusion that players have some sort of hidden agenda here? Couldn't the answer simply be that the team is very very young and it's a hard offense for the ENTIRE team to learn to run right ALL AT ONCE? by watching the games. its not a hidden agenda. but the players don't trust it. the shot-selection is atrocious. they chuck up ill-advised 3's before allowing the offense to run. there is no discipline on the players part to adhere to this offense. its not that they are bad character guys. i just think a lot of them have agressive scorer's mentalities. and a scorer's mentality is one-track minded. Greg, Nikita, and Omar on the only guys to seem to stick to the gameplan. the other guys don't have the patience nor the discipline to do so. and that is the reason for the sloppy and disjointed play. Exactly. The fact that assists are down AND turnovers are in line show me that we're not trying to thread needles or catching guys a step behind. We're actually not trying to make passes. That's the problem. This team has zero faith in the system right now. What's worse is we have two players who in general are strictly recipients of passes (Freeman and Summers). That's not going to work. All these guys have to believe in each other. Our offense is stagnant. If Wright or Monroe don't have the ball, forget about that one-handed bounce pass that's so important in the offense. They're not doing it on purpose (maybe Summers because he's never shown any real passing ability), but they are doing it. And if they continue to show no confidence in the offense, we'll continue to run Cringetown where it looks like our offense but everyone doesn't trust themselves or their teammates enough to throw a pass.
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the_way
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Feb 8, 2009 14:52:24 GMT -5
Post by the_way on Feb 8, 2009 14:52:24 GMT -5
Way: I have no problem with reacting to what is seen on the court. Too many posters here morph that into some character flaw on the part of the players. no doubt. i think III's previous teams bought in as a collective unit, from the jump start. in fact, his first year, they were a little too mechanical with the offense. it takes time, but also, i think, the pieces just don't fit. some of the players games don't compliment one another "(e.g., Sapp & Wright), like III's previous teams. III is searching and searching for the right combination, and hasn't found one. IN the past, he would start one guy over another, and that was all it took for the offense (and defense) to click.
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DanMcQ
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Feb 8, 2009 15:00:17 GMT -5
Post by DanMcQ on Feb 8, 2009 15:00:17 GMT -5
Giga: I want to make clear that I was not singling YOU out in my first post. I agree completely with your second post. What is striking is that in the "big" wins that others are citing as "lucky" the offense ran great (I was at three of them - maybe I should make it to more games). As way suggests, in the past making one roster 'change' seemed to make things click. What is not unusual is that all of III's teams have struggled to run the offense right at times, but seem to snap out of it at some point. This one has not yet and I'd submit that it is a combination of what you two cite as guys who only "receive" passes (although didn't Freeman throw the second half pass Summers muffed out of bounds or am I remembering wrong?) and a much higher percentage of guys on the roster who have little BE experience. In the past few games the defensive intensity has been better but offensive execution, especially in the second half, has not. Another very important factor that people often ignore is that teams have figured out that if you bump and impede the cutters, the offense sputters. This team hasn't figured out how to deal with that yet. Sleepy summarized this well in another thread.
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GIGAFAN99
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Feb 8, 2009 15:11:49 GMT -5
Post by GIGAFAN99 on Feb 8, 2009 15:11:49 GMT -5
Giga: I want to make clear that I was not singling YOU out in my first post. I agree completely with your second post. What is striking is that in the "big" wins that others are citing as "lucky" the offense ran great (I was at three of them - maybe I should make it to more games). As way suggests, in the past making one roster 'change' seemed to make things click. What is not unusual is that all of III's teams have struggled to run the offense right at times, but seem to snap out of it at some point. This one has not yet and I'd submit that it is a combination of what you two cite as guys who only "receive" passes (although didn't Freeman throw the second half pass Summers muffed out of bounds or am I remembering wrong?) and a much higher percentage of guys on the roster who have little BE experience. In the past few games the defensive intensity has been better but offensive execution, especially in the second half, has not. The defensive effort is a separate issue. And you are right on Freeman. In fact, Freeman CAN pass the ball! He just doesn't anymore. He doesn't necessarily jack up a shot or turn the ball over either, he just doesn't pass it for points. Freeman has actually stopped throwing passes. He snapped out of it against Marquette. And honestly, I thought after that game the offense was finally back and it was now just about the defense. But nope, right back to it. That's what's killing our shooting percentage. We only have two passing threats on the floor and we're stilling running our offense which requires 5.
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DanMcQ
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Feb 8, 2009 16:09:23 GMT -5
Post by DanMcQ on Feb 8, 2009 16:09:23 GMT -5
A big part of the reason the passes are not getting thrown is that teams have realized if you bump and grab the cutters they won't get to the spots they should be. The team needs to figure out how to counteract that. That 'plan B' currently seems to require too much thought and isn't happening spontaneously. Probably equal parts coaching, overall team youth, and some players whose games do not naturally fit the mold.
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sleepy
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Feb 8, 2009 16:17:56 GMT -5
Post by sleepy on Feb 8, 2009 16:17:56 GMT -5
Just to expand a little When executing the offense and it breaksdown has it had this year for a variety of reasons this team, though more individually talented i think than in the past few years ,been stuck between running the offense and taking advatages of the reads that are inherent in any defense and capitalizing on it. Wallace was especially adept at this over his tenure. Wright with more ability seems to be caught in between and when ever you're not 100% commited well you see the results. summers too is impacted by this contagion that has impacted them all to some degree. it's as much confidence as youth an inexperience. plus they are not quite the big time players on a mental level that we fans had expected.
And yes defense is a separate issue and i'm still perplexed by what we are doing. we are i think a better athletic team that cant rebound. yet we are afraid to play more man d. 3s teams in the past disquised alot of man with hedges and traps on top that were basically matchup zones underneath with a lot of rotation from the top to bottom which required great communication and commitment to it. part of the reason we basically played 7 guys. obviously he feels this group too cant play man yet they are lost on defense of almost any kind. the best d they have played in a month they played for the last 16 min in the of the first half then it was back to the same old thing. When you can keep the opposition to shooting % under 40 which we have done consitently over the last couple of years the basket suddenly looks a lot bigger at the other end. This team cant do it which to me is the most shocking development vs previous years when the D really continued to get better during the season.
And freeman i cant figure him out he is like ADD out on the court at times a stupid pass here or dumb turnover there. unforced for no reason. and then he'll score 7 points in a row and dissapear for another twenty minutes. he's a sophmore and its february time to grow up.
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DanMcQ
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Feb 8, 2009 16:26:06 GMT -5
Post by DanMcQ on Feb 8, 2009 16:26:06 GMT -5
To be clear, when I mentioned defense above I was talking about OPPONENT defense breaking down the Hoyas' offense. I was not talking about the Hoyas' defense - that's indeed a whole 'nother discussion.
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Massholya
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Feb 8, 2009 20:44:42 GMT -5
Post by Massholya on Feb 8, 2009 20:44:42 GMT -5
There's also the fact that we're missing a lot more shots (and layups) this year thus converting would be assists into defensive rebounds for the other team.
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blueandgray
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Feb 9, 2009 0:16:53 GMT -5
Post by blueandgray on Feb 9, 2009 0:16:53 GMT -5
We only have 4 guys on the team that have more assts than turnovers...Monroe, Wright, Freeman and Sapp. Monroe almost has as many turnover as assists though.
Dajuan has more than 2 turnovers for every assist...ouch!
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KHoyaNYC
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Feb 9, 2009 8:22:02 GMT -5
Post by KHoyaNYC on Feb 9, 2009 8:22:02 GMT -5
This stat is a real shame but what's the solution? Does JTIII abandon the offense in mid-February? Does he give the players who know how to run it more time, even if it means guys like Nikita and Omar are playing close to as many minutes as our more talented starters? Does he continue to drill the offense in practice and make them run it until it works? These questions need to be answered ASAP because it's February 9 and by losing to Cincy we no longer have any margin of error.
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blueandgray
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Feb 9, 2009 9:45:07 GMT -5
Post by blueandgray on Feb 9, 2009 9:45:07 GMT -5
I think execution (and not by a firing squad) is the only answer. we have to hope by some miracle this team regains some of its confidence and starts playing like they are capable of. syracuse would be a nice place to start.
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CTHoya08
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Feb 9, 2009 13:52:44 GMT -5
Post by CTHoya08 on Feb 9, 2009 13:52:44 GMT -5
I think execution (and not by a firing squad) is the only answer. we have to hope by some miracle this team regains some of its confidence and starts playing like they are capable of. syracuse would be a nice place to start. Execution by the firing squad doesn't sound that terrible right now.
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hoyainspirit
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When life puts that voodoo on me, music is my gris-gris.
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Feb 9, 2009 14:42:15 GMT -5
Post by hoyainspirit on Feb 9, 2009 14:42:15 GMT -5
I totally disagree with the myriad of posters who question our offensive philosophy, coaching(totally ridiculous, IMO), selfishness, or whether the kids have "bought in". As Mass points out, we miss a great many shots, but a high percentage of those have been layups, 12 in the last game. I can't tell you the number of times this yr I have been frustrated by the number of close in misses we have had. The offense continues to produce quality shots more often than not. As Dan points out above, the issue is more execution, a point with which I agree. We haven't finished well(Austin is particularly guilty, this year), or at times shot well from deep, but the offense has produced quality looks.
As for the defense, I agree with Way and others who point out that we are soft. Our interior defense is not really strong. On the perimeter, too often we get blown by, exposing the interior defense issues. I know many on this board are down on Rivers, but that is an issue he would address.
Finally, let's not forget that overall we are young, which leads to inconsistency. The leadership, calmness, and intangibles which Wallace brought are sorely missed. These kids have to work out these issues.(hopefully before Sat. ;D)
Let's just not mention rebounding, OK?
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SirSaxa
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Feb 9, 2009 14:54:41 GMT -5
Post by SirSaxa on Feb 9, 2009 14:54:41 GMT -5
I totally disagree with the myriad of posters who question our offensive philosophy, coaching(totally ridiculous, IMO), selfishness, or whether the kids have "bought in". As Mass points out, we miss a great many shots, but a high percentage of those have been layups, 12 in the last game. I can't tell you the number of times this yr I have been frustrated by the number of close in misses we have had. The offense continues to produce quality shots more often than not. As Dan points out above, the issue is more execution, a point with which I agree. We haven't finished well(Austin is particularly guilty, this year), or at times shot well from deep, but the offense has produced quality looks. As for the defense, I agree with Way and others who point out that we are soft. Our interior defensive is not really strong. On the perimeter, too often we get blown by, exposing the interior defense issues. I know many on this board are down on Rivers, but that is an issue he would address. Finally, let's not forget that overall we are young, which leads to inconsistency. These kids have to work out these issues.(hopefully before Sat. ;D) Let's just not mention rebounding, OK? Sound, sensible comments. Your music gris-gris must be working! Gotta get me some of that!
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Feb 9, 2009 15:15:53 GMT -5
Post by hoyas big supporter on Feb 9, 2009 15:15:53 GMT -5
I honestly do not think that the players haven't bought in and are taking I'll advised shots.. Our offense just hasn't been executed well the last month... I'm sir our players are fine with the system because we were playing well earlier in the season with the system.. Something has gone terribly wrong since the duke game and it needs to be gone by Saturday boys
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rosslynhoya
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Feb 9, 2009 16:24:26 GMT -5
Post by rosslynhoya on Feb 9, 2009 16:24:26 GMT -5
Does anyone else wonder what the team does during an ordinary practice? The claims about Jesse and the student manager before the Rutgers game sure struck me as odd.
If they're not practicing their shooting, passing, dribbling, etc., then what are they doing? Just watching tape? Looking at a coach draw Xs and Os on a white board for a couple hours a night? Sitting crosslegged on a mat with herbal tea and candles while they attempt to re-center their chi and find their inner togetherness?
I'm not trying to be snarky, but I'm among those who blame the execution of the offense more than the theory of the offense. If an HOUR of shooting could do that much good for Jesse, you have to wonder what might happen if the entire team spent an hour practicing their layups or an hour dribbling the ball along the baseline.
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