EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 11, 2009 14:04:24 GMT -5
you can't blame Dajuan and Sapp for what they aren't. people are quick to assume, that "well hey, they are upperclassman, they need to be leaders" "well hey, they are upperclassman, they means they are leaders" well, not everybody is a leader. people fail to understand this. its not a character flaw or that somebody is a bad person. its just a trait that people either have or don't. Summers and Sapp are what they are. you can't say Sapp isn't fighting his guts out, when he is on the floor (or if he is on the floor). He is doing the best he can. The best he can isn't going to make us a top 10 team. you can't say Summers has regressed as a player. Summers has been what he has been his entire career. a solid talent, that is cosistently iconsistent. again, Summers being the best player HE can be, isn't going to make us a top 10 team. Way, again you hit the nail on the head.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Feb 11, 2009 14:26:45 GMT -5
Dan -- GPHoya made some good points, but so did you. It is a "fine line". Maybe better to err on the side of caution as you tend to do. TheWay. You are correct in pointing out what Jessie and DaJaun have done/been in the past. But I don't agree we should not expect more from them as they get older, more experienced. That's the whole point of being on a team, coaching, learning, developing your game... individually and as a team. We DO expect much more from our Seniors than we do from our freshmen. Barker made the whole situation pretty clear. I share the disappointment that neither of those guys have risen to the occasion now that this is really "their" team. Earlier this school year, I was posting how this would be JT3's first team without the remarkable class of '08 and that it would be a new era. Maybe the first year of the Monroe era. I looked at it as an exciting opportunity. The team more than lived up to that promise through the first 'Cuse game. Then the wheels came off -- completely. There is still time for this TEAM to recover. We all know it will take all of the players and coaches to pull it off. Saturday is their big test. Will they lift up their game and remember TEAM first? I can't think of a more hostile environment for our Hoyas than the Carrier Dome facing a our biggest rival, a team we already beat... badly, and one that has also undergone a deep swoon. It will be very interesting to see what happens, and if JT3 changes the starting line-up. GO HOYAS! Did you expect more from Ken Izzo or Sead when they were seniors? How abot Omari Faulkner? are you getting my point? guys are what they are. not everybody is a leader. Sapp and Summers are the same players they have always been. Only before, they had other multi-talented players around them to hide their deficiencies. the talent around them now is different. Particularly with Sapp, it has totally affected his game. Summers is what he normally is. But people mistakenly put more on his shoulders than what he can handle. he is not Jeff Green. he is not Roy Hibbert. they were leaders. Summers isn't. both guys are solid complimentary players. neither are go-to-guys. neither are leaders. leadership is not an "on/off" type situation. a leaders doesn't say "hey, i'm going to lead now" because of his status or position. a leader just does that...lead. a coach doesn't appoint that person. the leader (or leaders) emerge on their own. you cant' blame Summers and Sapp for being what they aren't. AND you can't blame Summers and Sapp for a team that isn't that good to begin with. In terms of this year. I don't see the team as struggling. They are where i thought they would be given their roster and level of competition they have played. The goal, at the outset would be to make the NCAA's. If they did that, it would be a great coaching job on JTIII's part. we lost too many players to graduation and transfers, and we simply don't have enough ingredients back to be what some think we should be. if you can only site 2 league games every time of when a team played great after how many games they have played in-conference, then that isn't a great or good team. UCONN is a good team. Pitt is a good team. louisville is a good team. Heck, Syracuse is struggling, yet have won 6 Big East games. What have we done? the Syracuse and UCONN game's are fool's gold. we have been consistently bad in Big East play more than we have been conistently good. so which team is the real GU of this year?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 11, 2009 15:12:46 GMT -5
I'm not going to talk about the leadership portion -- there's something to being a natural leader, etc., but there's also not pouting on the bench, showing leadership through listening to the coach, working hard, etc.
As for DaJuan being the best player he can be, that's just silly. One, more effort in improving over the past three years, say on his handle, would have made him a better player. Two, keeping his focusing and exerting consistent effort on defense would make him a better player.
His performance right now if not up to his ability, either in the long term or the short term view. Michael Jordan was great not just because he had a high ceiling, but because he had a high ceiling and worked to get there. DaJuan's ceiling is higher than his production right now.
There's no inherent limitation in DaJuan that he was born to come out and jack up ill-advised shots or play lazy D. We've seen him have stretches where he does neither.
There's also no inherent limitation in DaJuan over the long term to have as bad of handles as he has now.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Feb 11, 2009 15:23:11 GMT -5
I'm not going to talk about the leadership portion -- there's something to being a natural leader, etc., but there's also not pouting on the bench, showing leadership through listening to the coach, working hard, etc. As for DaJuan being the best player he can be, that's just silly. One, more effort in improving over the past three years, say on his handle, would have made him a better player. Two, keeping his focusing and exerting consistent effort on defense would make him a better player. His performance right now if not up to his ability, either in the long term or the short term view. Michael Jordan was great not just because he had a high ceiling, but because he had a high ceiling and worked to get there. DaJuan's ceiling is higher than his production right now. There's no inherent limitation in DaJuan that he was born to come out and jack up ill-advised shots or play lazy D. We've seen him have stretches where he does neither. There's also no inherent limitation in DaJuan over the long term to have as bad of handles as he has now. Summers improving on his handle and defense is like Othella improving his vertical and defense. Or J. Wallace improving his defense. Or Macklin improving his basketball fundamentals and FT shooting. or Hibbert improving his athleticism. or Austin Freeman improving his athleticism. Or Monroe becoming a physical and intimidating force in the paint defensively. you are what you are. So, Summers is somehow going to automatically transform into a player he has never been with some....eh...."improvement". Since, after 3 years he has shown otherwise. Dajaun's ceiling isn't that high. Only thing thats high are fans who think he is some great, lottery pick type talent, only if he "worked on it".
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 11, 2009 15:30:36 GMT -5
That's just not true. Defense is not pure athleticism.
Summers and Freeman and other could simply put more effort into defense. The Cincy game is a perfect example. During a 10 minute stretch we WORKED on defense. Rotations were quick, anitcipatory. Players were in proper defensive stances. Hands were up and balls were being tipped left and right.
Cincy could get nothing. They took a series of threes three feet beyond the line just to get a shot off. It was like last year.
Later in the game, the effort slipped. The rotations were all a step late. Hands were down. People got lost. Leading to some just barely open threes from the three point lane. Late rotations down the lane lead to layups. Weaker effort on the defensive boards led to more O rebounds for Cincy.
Focus and effort is key. You can also improve through better footwork, aniticipation, strength training and other tehcnique.
Wallace improved on defense IMMENSELY over his four years and the fact that you can't see that more or less invalidates your point in my eyes.
Roy didn't improve? Was he who he was? What about Jeff?
In what world do you live that players don't improve their skills?
I don't know if DaJuan is lottery pick level high "if he just worked on it." I think he could be if he was psychotic, like Jordan or Kobe, but few people have *that*. What I do know is that he should be more productive than Brandon Bowman. That he shouldn't be a sieve on D and a massive turnover liability right now. And he could play team ball.
DaJuan has done all those things. He's played much better than he's playing during the losing streak.
This really isn't that hard to understand. These players don't come fully formed into college.
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Feb 11, 2009 15:36:30 GMT -5
I'm not going to talk about the leadership portion -- there's something to being a natural leader, etc., but there's also not pouting on the bench, showing leadership through listening to the coach, working hard, etc. As for DaJuan being the best player he can be, that's just silly. One, more effort in improving over the past three years, say on his handle, would have made him a better player. Two, keeping his focusing and exerting consistent effort on defense would make him a better player. His performance right now if not up to his ability, either in the long term or the short term view. Michael Jordan was great not just because he had a high ceiling, but because he had a high ceiling and worked to get there. DaJuan's ceiling is higher than his production right now. There's no inherent limitation in DaJuan that he was born to come out and jack up ill-advised shots or play lazy D. We've seen him have stretches where he does neither. There's also no inherent limitation in DaJuan over the long term to have as bad of handles as he has now. Summers improving on his handle and defense is like Othella improving his vertical and defense. Or J. Wallace improving his defense. Or Macklin improving his basketball fundamentals and FT shooting. or Hibbert improving his athleticism. or Austin Freeman improving his athleticism. Or Monroe becoming a physical and intimidating force in the paint defensively. you are what you are. So, Summers is somehow going to automatically transform into a player he has never been with some....eh...."improvement". Since, after 3 years he has shown otherwise. Dajaun's ceiling isn't that high. Only thing thats high are fans who think he is some great, lottery pick type talent, only if he "worked on it". You can see my post in "the team just isn't that talented" for further comments on how you're glorifying past teams and trashing this one. But needless to say, I have a hard time seeing you ever think a Hoya team has talent until seasons later. These guys have talent, and talent can be worked on. Go back and read some of your earlier comments about past Hoya players early in their career and compare with what you say about them now, and then tell me talent can't be developed.
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the_way
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Post by the_way on Feb 11, 2009 15:42:51 GMT -5
As much as he "improved", Wallace was a defensive liability his entire career at GU. thats a fact. Stevie Wonder could see that. But he made up for it for all he brough to the table in other areas of his game.
Jeff Green and Roy Hibbert had leadership qualities, were self-motivated. Roy improved because of that. Jeff Green was a special player the minute he stepped on campus. he didn't have "the hype" Monroe or even Dajuan had coming out of high school. He was the "smartest player I ever coached" (c) JTIII.
thats the point you are missing.
Green and Hibbert had those intangibles.
DaJuan doesn't. What DaJaun is, is a solid talent who can play the 3 or 4. That can have a breaktout game here or there, but often times leaves you shorthanded. I compared him to Lamar Oden of the Lakers. You keep waiting and waiting for all this potential to be fulfilled. And it never happens outside of a few games. What he actually is, is what people refuse to think he isn't. And what he is not, is the pipe dream folks keep holding onto about his potential.
Why should DaJuan be more productive than Brandon Bowman? He has less of a skill set than Brandon ever did.
What can DaJuan do besides dunk and shoot the 3?
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swhoya
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Post by swhoya on Feb 11, 2009 15:52:08 GMT -5
And my point is this: you made lots of comments during the Final 4 season about how that team just didn't have "it." That the coaching staff was doing a phenomenal job, given the personnel that they were working with. Well, now you're talking about how phenomenal the personnel from that team was. It's just inconsisent.
Perhaps the coaching staff deserves a lot of the blame for not getting it done this year (and I certainly think there's plenty of blame to go around). But the season isn't over, and I'm not willing to buy that these players are or will always be one-dimensional. Players learn over the course of the season, and I've seen enough flashes of talent to think that it's possible they can pull it out.
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VelvetElvis
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Post by VelvetElvis on Feb 11, 2009 15:52:34 GMT -5
commit cheap fouls?
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MassHoya
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Post by MassHoya on Feb 11, 2009 16:37:03 GMT -5
Not only are Jesse and Dajuan a senior and a junior, respectively, but they are the captains of the team. Captains, by definition, are supposed to lead. If they can't or won't lead, then they should not have accepted the title. It's time for them to get out in front and beat Syracuse.
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Feb 11, 2009 17:01:27 GMT -5
I wouldn't list "dunk" too high on DaJuan's list of skills.
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Post by hoyalawyer on Feb 11, 2009 17:17:08 GMT -5
the one who bears the most responsibility for this teams short-comings: Bryon Jansen... where is the senior leadership?
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Post by JohnnyJones on Feb 11, 2009 17:58:34 GMT -5
[/quote]
In terms of this year. I don't see the team as struggling. They are where i thought they would be given their roster and level of competition they have played. The goal, at the outset would be to make the NCAA's. If they did that, it would be a great coaching job on JTIII's part. we lost too many players to graduation and transfers, and we simply don't have enough ingredients back to be what some think we should be.
if you can only site 2 league games every time of when a team played great after how many games they have played in-conference, then that isn't a great or good team. UCONN is a good team. Pitt is a good team. louisville is a good team. Heck, Syracuse is struggling, yet have won 6 Big East games. What have we done?
the Syracuse and UCONN game's are fool's gold.
[/quote]
the_way: To follow up on guru's point about your recent posting history (and assuming his facts are correct) -- if you have known this all along, why didn't you come by sometime prior to the aftermath of the WVU game to enlighten us all? In particular, why didn't you come by after the wins you cite above - or even Maryland, or Memphis, or Providence? How could you read ProfessorHoya posts in the days following the Syracuse win and not post to set the record straight?
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Post by wrestlemania on Feb 11, 2009 18:11:53 GMT -5
the one who bears the most responsibility for this teams short-comings: Bryon Jansen... where is the senior leadership? Exactly -- put the blame where it belongs!!! ;D After his three that put GU up by eight mid-2nd half on Saturday, his line was a parade of turnovers, mid-range clunkers (one an airball), a couple of missed threes and general absenteeism. He could compensate by getting to the foul line more, but that won't happen 23 feet from the basket. DaJuan has some skills but he is not an NBA player right now. Him and "lottery" don't belong in the same sentence.
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sleepy
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Post by sleepy on Feb 11, 2009 20:33:09 GMT -5
I think you are all being a little too hard on Dajuan here. I mean, sure he han't been playing that well or maybe even leading that well, but I have seen him atleast trying to lead during games, during dead balls and stuff. He is certainly not perfect, and does play a little selfish at times, but I have seen leadership skills displayed by him, dealing with all the players. The thing is he is by himself in leading a very young and new group and only a junior himself. Sapp has completely disappeared and seems to be causing some problems as well. There is no excuse for that. None at all. So what if he isn't/wasn't scoring? We needed him to stabalize thing out there and bring his intangibles, but instead he seemed to have sulked. Very disappointing from a senior on a very young team, and honestly I think he is the difference in our season. He doesn't go into that "slump", I say we are a totally different team right now. Even if he does go into that slump, but keeps his head together and be there for the team, we would be a totally different team. But no, he just disappeared leaving us with one junior to lead a group of freshman. And now we are seeing how that works out.
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Post by bigtymehoya on Feb 11, 2009 22:18:13 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that we are struggling because JT3 is committed to a youth movement? To me, this all makes sense even though most of our players happen to be young.
I was reading an article (http://www.thehoya.com/node/15121) where everyone under the sun seemed to praise Sapp for his in-game heroics and rebounding (especially at the end of games). This year, however, when it seems we needed Sapp in the game most for both rebounding and late game heroics, JT3 has kept him on the bench, hoping that someone else would step up (which explains his 10-man rotation). This would also explain why Wright doesn't come out of games even when he gets a little bit out of control (JT3 wouldn't want him to transfer). I think JT3 is just biting the bullet this year, so that the team could be better next year. It just so happens that Sapp is the one that has to suffer the most individually (which in turn hurts our team today).
I'm not so sure I agree with this (assuming this is the case).
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seaweed
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Post by seaweed on Feb 12, 2009 11:51:02 GMT -5
I don't see it as a committment to youth, I see it as realism - this team is YOUNG.
(AWESOME use of parentheses)
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