lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,438
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 10, 2009 20:48:45 GMT -5
YUP THANKS DAJUANN NEED OH HENRY AND HES A COMING NOW
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SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 10, 2009 21:25:32 GMT -5
And no one dimensional/liability players like Wallace and Hibbert who were defensive liabilities, couldn't penetrate and lacked athleticism which offset there offensive firepower. Professor, the line above is the one that caused everyone to react to your post and to disagree with you. It had nothing to do with comparing freshman Roy to freshman Greg, or to later stating the obvious that Greg and Chris are more athletic than Roy and Jon. Prior to the arrival of Roy and Jon, GU had gone 4 straight years without an NCAA appearance, concluding with a 13-15 season. Walk-on Wallace started 136 straight games during his four years. Roy started most of those. Together the team went 100-36, went to one NIT and three NCAA's including one Sweet Sixteen and another Final Four. The Hoyas won one BET Title and reached the final of another, and won two consecutive BE Conference championships for the first time in GU history. Referring to Roy and Jon as "one dimensional/liability players like Wallace and Hibbert who were defensive liabilities" -- on a team that led the nation in Defensive FG % -- is not only disrespectful of two great Hoyas, including one who postponed his entry into the NBA Draft to come back to lead the Hoyas again, it is wholly and entirely inaccurate.
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,438
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 10, 2009 21:31:59 GMT -5
agree sir saxa agree hoyas all and great ones all different but all hoyas PROUD OF ALL OF EM these guys are faster adn more athletic but the four seniors last year did us proud go hoyas one and all BEAT THE CUSE ;D
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2009 21:33:55 GMT -5
And no one dimensional/liability players like Wallace and Hibbert who were defensive liabilities, couldn't penetrate and lacked athleticism which offset there offensive firepower. Professor, the line above is the one that caused everyone to react to your post and to disagree with you. It had nothing to do with comparing freshman Roy to freshman Greg, or to later stating the obvious that Greg and Chris are more athletic than Roy and Jon. Prior to the arrival of Roy and Jon, GU had gone 4 straight years without an NCAA appearance, concluding with a 13-15 season. Walk-on Wallace started 136 straight games during his four years. Roy started most of those. Together the team went 100-36, went to one NIT and three NCAA's including one Sweet Sixteen and another Final Four. The Hoyas won one BET Title and reached the final of another, and won two consecutive BE Conference championships for the first time in GU history. Referring to Roy and Jon as "one dimensional/liability players like Wallace and Hibbert who were defensive liabilities" -- on a team that led the nation in Defensive FG % -- is not only disrespectful of two great Hoyas, including one who postponed his entry into the NBA Draft to come back to lead the Hoyas again, it is wholly and entirely inaccurate. It is what it is. They are one dimensional but their one dimension, their offensive shooting is world class. And I did make a point to mention that. Wallace and Hibbert are great but they are what we thought they were. The Pacer teams of Jackson, Reggie Miller, Smits, Dale Davis, AD are a classic example of this. They were a bunch of one dimensional players but they could all do one thing really well. And together they could compensate for each others weaknesses. But you need all the pieces to get a machine like that functioning smoothly. Miss even one component (like Jeff Green) and it breaks down. I think too many of you are focussing on the negatives rather then the fact that we have what they would call in baseball "Five Tool Players" at every position on this team this year. Some of you seem really down on this year and are complaining about the team just like last year but the message is this years team is alot better then last year. I'm telling you this years team is good, enjoy this year cause Monroe will be gone after March.
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MCIGuy
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Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 10, 2009 21:39:59 GMT -5
But back to the lucky foul trouble. If in fact Henry ends up being a 15-20 minute option at 4, this team just got a whole lot better and not just because of depth. If a Summers, Sims, Monroe lineup is playable as we get to March the Hoyas have basically developed a second look for teams to deal with. You spend a few minutes dealing with Austin anf then he gets replaced by some 6-10 guy who is pretty much exactly the opposite instead of the "same only not quite as good" situation we have with Omar. Now I'm gonna ask the same question as I ask before the season when folks were still talking about possible starting lineups: why Austin and not Jesse? I know this all hypothetical but how about "you spend a few minutes dealing with Jesse and then Austin moves to the two and a 6-10 guys comes on the floor as Jesse heads to the bench"?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 10, 2009 21:42:10 GMT -5
The idea that Hibbert was a defensive liability is laughable.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 10, 2009 21:44:49 GMT -5
MCI is spot on in this thread. Nobody has ever argued that Roy/Jon were perfect. Hell, Jon took a pretty good bashing many years for not being "athletic" or having that game that would get people to whistle at you in Rucker Park. After all, he was a walk on who earned a scholarship in the program and turned into the best 3 point shooter the program has ever seen. A great disservice is paid to Roy, Jon, Jeff, and Pat by this sort of post hoc nonsense. As it stood in early spring 2004, Jeff had not qualified, Jon was not even on any GU radar screen because he was not recruited by the previous coach, Pat was in Indiana, and Roy was a stiff but a recruitable stiff because he had shown skill. All 4 could have ended up elsewhere, and good counsel would have suggested it given the turmoil that had surrounded the program for a couple of years. But, all 4 chose Georgetown and we are better off for it. Strawman. Nobody is arguing that. The point is that this years team is good, alot better then last years. Different types of players but what this team has is chemistry. I'm detecting some of the same negativity to this years team that we had last year but my point is this year's team is much better. Jon was great but he was a non athletic Shooting Guard in a Point Guard's body. So that put you in certain disadvantages, which he compensated for with his amazing shooting. If his shots weren't falling though we were in trouble especially last year when we didn't have the personnel or the team chemistry to complement his strengths. I see Jon as a Steve Kerr type who can be a final piece to a Championship team if you surround him with the right players. We didn't have those players last year so it was doomed from the start. This years team is different because like I said they are athletic, and mutliskilled. I would enjoy it while Monroe is still here, because a team like this isn't going to come around often. I understand perfectly what you're arguing. I just find it to be wrong. Your run down of Rivers, for example, while colorful, ignores his significant contributions on the defensive end, including his virtual shut down of Flynn in the Phone Booth last season. This is something that is an underlying issue on our team - no shut down perimeter defense (see half 1 of GU v. PU, Cameron Tatum in the Milk House, etc.) That Milk House performance cost us a game. This year's team misses Macklin perhaps even more. If you want to give teams another look, think of what you could do with Wright, Sapp/Freeman, Summers, Macklin, and Monroe on the floor at the same time. That lineup was ready to be played on DAY 1 to the degree that we would need Sims/Vaughn only for spot minutes (and may not have pursued Vaughn as a transfer option at all). So, reality is that I am taking Macklin over our bench post players right now and would take Rivers over Clark (and Omar) for the purpose of winning this season. Last year's team had an NBA draftee on the BENCH, when this year's team has ? on the bench in terms of readiness to contribute consistently NOW. So, the idea that we would argue that "this years [sic] team is much better" leaves a little to be desired, particularly when last year's team ran into bad luck with the Wright injury and, despite its well-chronicled limitations, won the conference and made it to the BET final. We can agree insofar as this year's team has the POTENTIAL to be better than last year's team. But, as one of my basketball coaches once said, potential is as much a good thing as a bad thing.
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bmartin on Jan 10, 2009 21:46:34 GMT -5
Last year's team was definitely a better defensive team than this year's team so far. You could look it up. Last year's team made stops when they needed them in close games against good teams. This year's team has not shown that ability.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,487
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 10, 2009 21:53:32 GMT -5
But back to the lucky foul trouble. If in fact Henry ends up being a 15-20 minute option at 4, this team just got a whole lot better and not just because of depth. If a Summers, Sims, Monroe lineup is playable as we get to March the Hoyas have basically developed a second look for teams to deal with. You spend a few minutes dealing with Austin anf then he gets replaced by some 6-10 guy who is pretty much exactly the opposite instead of the "same only not quite as good" situation we have with Omar. Now I'm gonna ask the same question as I ask before the season when folks were still talking about possible starting lineups: why Austin and not Jesse? I know this all hypothetical but how about "you spend a few minutes dealing with Jesse and then Austin moves to the two and a 6-10 guys comes on the floor as Jesse heads to the bench"? MCI, I agree it could be either way. All I'm saying is 3-4-5 goes from Austin-Summers-Monroe to Sims-Summers-Monroe. Where Austin goes (bench or to the 2) doesn't matter. I was just saying Sims replaces Austin in the 3-4-5 rotation.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2009 21:54:40 GMT -5
I understand perfectly what you're arguing. I just find it to be wrong. Your run down of Rivers, for example, while colorful, ignores his significant contributions on the defensive end, including his virtual shut down of Flynn in the Phone Booth last season. This is something that is an underlying issue on our team - no shut down perimeter defense (see half 1 of GU v. PU, Cameron Tatum in the Milk House, etc.) That Milk House performance cost us a game. This year's team misses Macklin perhaps even more. If you want to give teams another look, think of what you could do with Wright, Sapp/Freeman, Summers, Macklin, and Monroe on the floor at the same time. That lineup was ready to be played on DAY 1 to the degree that we would need Sims/Vaughn only for spot minutes (and may not have pursued Vaughn as a transfer option at all). So, reality is that I am taking Macklin over our bench post players right now and would take Rivers over Clark (and Omar) for the purpose of winning this season. Last year's team had an NBA draftee on the BENCH, when this year's team has ? on the bench in terms of readiness to contribute consistently NOW. So, the idea that we would argue that "this years [sic] team is much better" leaves a little to be desired, particularly when last year's team ran into bad luck with the Wright injury and, despite its well-chronicled limitations, won the conference and made it to the BET final. We can agree insofar as this year's team has the POTENTIAL to be better than last year's team. But, as one of my basketball coaches once said, potential is as much a good thing as a bad thing. Fair Enough. You like last years team. I think it had POTENTIAL if Ewing played more minutes at the 3. I didn't like Jeremiah at all for sure. I knew they couldn't go far because the meltdowns they would experience when Jeremiah came in along with Ewing not helping the board and on defense (because he was on the bench) would catch up to them in the tournament. But I like this years team. I'm telling you, this years team is good. It's not even about Potential, they already beat the #2 team in the Country, UCONN when everybody was predicting them to be unstoppable. Sure in the tourney anything can happen, they could get upset first round. But this team has all the pieces, skill level and athleticism to go all the way. I guarantee you there was no way last years team could have won the whole thing. Monroe is an incredibly special player. He has the best ball handling skill of any 6-11 Player I can remember. It's not even close. His Passing and awareness is a bonus. Summers is a much better player this year then last because he feeds off Chris Wright and Monroe's energy and style. He was out of place last year he just didn't fit in with Hibbert and Wallaces style. Freeman, Sapp, Wright are all top class. There are 5 go to guys on offense who can't be shut down because they can shoot, penetrate, drive and finish. This is a rare team for sure.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2009 21:55:50 GMT -5
Last year's team was definitely a better defensive team than this year's team so far. You could look it up. Last year's team made stops when they needed them in close games against good teams. This year's team has not shown that ability. It's what 4 games into the season. You really can't compare anything at this point just based on numbers. We can talk about it at the end of the season.
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Post by vamosalaplaya on Jan 10, 2009 22:02:40 GMT -5
I'd like to support the poster who tried to get the thread back on track, before Proffessorhoya declared that Hibbert and Wallace were liablities/one dimensional.
If the team can be more than a 6 man rotation they will be infinitely better in March. You knew that the bench would have to step up - or get a chance to step up - and today it started to. Good news all around.
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Post by bbb71 on Jan 10, 2009 22:05:50 GMT -5
Roy Hibbert was a defensive liability? Wow. And Larry Brown turned to Derrick Mckey to make up for Mark Jackson's lack of athleticsm? wow.
In all seriousness, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with the idea that our team would be better off with Rivers instead of Clark. Clark is a vastly, vastly, vastly superior offensive player. And defensively, Rivers' supposed strength, I would take Clark there without even thinking about it. Rivers has one advantage on Jason...size. Jason is quicker, has longer arms, is more disruptive in the passing lanes, and is a slightly better athlete (though Rivers was athletic). No one was stopping Tatum that day in Orlando.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Jan 10, 2009 22:08:22 GMT -5
I understand perfectly what you're arguing. I just find it to be wrong. Your run down of Rivers, for example, while colorful, ignores his significant contributions on the defensive end, including his virtual shut down of Flynn in the Phone Booth last season. This is something that is an underlying issue on our team - no shut down perimeter defense (see half 1 of GU v. PU, Cameron Tatum in the Milk House, etc.) That Milk House performance cost us a game. This year's team misses Macklin perhaps even more. If you want to give teams another look, think of what you could do with Wright, Sapp/Freeman, Summers, Macklin, and Monroe on the floor at the same time. That lineup was ready to be played on DAY 1 to the degree that we would need Sims/Vaughn only for spot minutes (and may not have pursued Vaughn as a transfer option at all). So, reality is that I am taking Macklin over our bench post players right now and would take Rivers over Clark (and Omar) for the purpose of winning this season. Last year's team had an NBA draftee on the BENCH, when this year's team has ? on the bench in terms of readiness to contribute consistently NOW. So, the idea that we would argue that "this years [sic] team is much better" leaves a little to be desired, particularly when last year's team ran into bad luck with the Wright injury and, despite its well-chronicled limitations, won the conference and made it to the BET final. We can agree insofar as this year's team has the POTENTIAL to be better than last year's team. But, as one of my basketball coaches once said, potential is as much a good thing as a bad thing. Fair Enough. You like last years team. I think it had POTENTIAL if Ewing played more minutes at the 3. I didn't like Jeremiah at all for sure. I knew they couldn't go far because the meltdowns they would experience when Jeremiah came in along with Ewing not helping the board and on defense (because he was on the bench) would catch up to them in the tournament. But I like this years team. I'm telling you, this years team is good. It's not even about Potential, they already beat the #2 team in the Country, UCONN when everybody was predicting them to be unstoppable. Sure in the tourney anything can happen, they could get upset first round. But this team has all the pieces, skill level and athleticism to go all the way. I guarantee you there was no way last years team could have won the whole thing. Monroe is an incredibly special player. He has the best ball handling skill of any 6-11 Player I can remember. It's not even close. His Passing and awareness is a bonus. Summers is a much better player this year then last because he feeds off Chris Wright and Monroe's energy and style. He was out of place last year he just didn't fit in with Hibbert and Wallaces style. Freeman, Sapp, Wright are all top class. There are 5 go to guys on offense who can't be shut down because they can shoot, penetrate, drive and finish. This is a rare team for sure. I agree that last year's team didn't realize its full potential. That's not at issue. But, the idea that potential is no longer an issue because we beat UCONN is suspect. Florida State frequently beats Duke, but nobody would mistake FSU for a basketball team/program. We need to make that UCONN win stick and roll into something. I also agree that this year's team has a better personality. But, our energy is going to win us some games and lose us some games, particularly because we haven't found a way to harness our energy when needed. Today, for example, we gagged away a couple of possessions in the second half to take a lead when sound, half court rigor was needed offensively. I agree with your points on Monroe save for the Ewing/Zo comparison defensively and efforts to run down Roy. Monroe is special in his own right and a different type of player than all other Georgetown centers.
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Post by professorhoya on Jan 10, 2009 22:15:30 GMT -5
I agree that last year's team didn't realize its full potential. That's not at issue. But, the idea that potential is no longer an issue because we beat UCONN is suspect. Florida State frequently beats Duke, but nobody would mistake FSU for a basketball team/program. We need to make that UCONN win stick and roll into something. I also agree that this year's team has a better personality. But, our energy is going to win us some games and lose us some games, particularly because we haven't found a way to harness our energy when needed. Today, for example, we gagged away a couple of possessions in the second half to take a lead when sound, half court rigor was needed offensively. I agree with your points on Monroe save for the Ewing/Zo comparison defensively and efforts to run down Roy. Monroe is special in his own right and a different type of player than all other Georgetown centers. Yeah for sure right now we are making some sloppy mistakes. But alot of that I attribute to Freshmen (Monroe, Clarke) playing for the first time. And just the fact that they are all playing for the first time together as a unit, it takes a while to get your timing down or know what your teammate likes to do, their habits. An example would be the fast break where Monroe threw the ball away thinking Wright or Summers was going to go one way but they didn't. Also, I think they are giving up about 6-8 pts a game still trying to learn the Princeton System. I think alot of the turnovers and missed shots are happening because they are learning that. You need everyone on the same page to get that working and I'm glad they are trying it even though it is hurting them right now. It's the little things like that, and giving the bench PT which are keeping these games close. But it's a learning curve that will make them much much better by March. I also think, this team would have a Killer Full Court Press if they ever decided to work with it.
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GIGAFAN99
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
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Post by GIGAFAN99 on Jan 10, 2009 22:39:21 GMT -5
While Hibbert was definitely not a defensive liability, I agree with professor on the rest of his assessment.
Now last year's team was really good obviously. But remember two years ago when the Hoyas figured out Jeff was their best player and the rest of the guys keyed off of everything he did in the offense? That's what we're watching with Monroe right now. Those passes the guys dropped today will be caught and finished in March. The hesitant catch and shoot threes will be confidently taken.
Last year's bunch played their roles well and grinded out gutsy wins. That is what we loved about them. But these guys could be a machine by the end of the year. I think that's what professor is really saying. If the season ended today, you'd put them in the Sweet 16 and they have a lot of season left and a lot of room to grow.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Jan 10, 2009 23:40:06 GMT -5
Outside of a couple of points, the thing with which I take greatest offense is blatantly discounting or taking unnecessary shots at players. Every player is going to have their faults, but fans are supposed to be supportive.
As for the chemistry issues, I think two players transferring speaks volumes about that situation, and thus is incorrect to hold the players who stayed accountable. This year's team has great potential, but until they match some of the program's recent achievements, declarations of their superiority to previous editions seem quite overblown.
And regarding the original topic, I never think that having foul trouble of any type is a great break, though it certainly appears to have created opportunities for other players to succeed as well as a significant amount of confidence in the bench by the players on it, the coaches and the fans.
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mapei
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Post by mapei on Jan 11, 2009 14:38:03 GMT -5
Outside of a couple of points, the thing with which I take greatest offense is blatantly discounting or taking unnecessary shots at players. Every player is going to have their faults, but fans are supposed to be supportive. As for the chemistry issues, I think two players transferring speaks volumes about that situation, and thus is incorrect to hold the players who stayed accountable. This year's team has great potential, but until they match some of the program's recent achievements, declarations of their superiority to previous editions seem quite overblown. And regarding the original topic, I never think that having foul trouble of any type is a great break, though it certainly appears to have created opportunities for other players to succeed as well as a significant amount of confidence in the bench by the players on it, the coaches and the fans. Great post on all counts. You can make good points about this team's potential without a hyperbolic slam against two players who are among the top 20 Hoyas of all time in my book. And I would argue that last year's team did reach its potential, especially considering that we had lost our best player. You can't judge a season by what happens in a single-elimination tournament. And, while I couldn't agree more that freshman Monroe may be the best freshman big man we've had in about three decades - his talent is incredible - freshman Monroe may be all we get. We're certainly not getting more than sophomore Monroe. He will realize his full potential, but it's unlikely to be at Georgetown.
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MCIGuy
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Anyone here? What am I supposed to update?
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Post by MCIGuy on Jan 11, 2009 15:09:02 GMT -5
All I ask for X-Mas is a sophmore Monroe. And senior Summers. And a national championship. ....And a commitment from Roscoe Smith. Am I asking too much?
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Jan 11, 2009 15:16:50 GMT -5
All I ask for X-Mas is a sophmore Monroe. And senior Summers. And a national championship. ....And a commitment from Roscoe Smith. Am I asking too much? You're not asking enough! But honestly, if we got all three things you mentioned? We would ALL be very happy!
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