Summers Foul Trouble May Be A Great Break

[calhoya]

Not certain what JTIII would have done if Summers had not tripped that player for the 4th foul, but it may be one of the biggest plays of the year. It should be apparent that this team is not going to play far into March with only a 6 man rotation. The play of Sims today has to help his confidence and that of JTIII in Henry. It is not that he was outstanding, but rather that he contributed significant minutes in a critical part of the game.

We cannot enter every game hoping that Monroe and Summers do not get into foul trouble or get injured, or do not have an off day. Ditto for the guard rotation. Clark is further along than Henry or Vaughn, but this was a necessary step for this team. It is an incredibly young team and if by some miracle they are all back--minus Sapp- they will be top 5 next year.

For all those frustrated with Freeman or Wright, please remember they are in their 2nd year (actually Wright is really 1st year) and that neither have the presence of a Wallace, Ewing or Hibbert to steady the team after a mistake. These guys are really fantastic players and they will only get better--if they are allowed to grow and given a rest.

[professorhoya]

Jan 10, 2009 17:53:51 GMT -5 calhoya said:

Not certain what JTIII would have done if Summers had not tripped that player for the 4th foul, but it may be one of the biggest plays of the year. It should be apparent that this team is not going to play far into March with only a 6 man rotation. The play of Sims today has to help his confidence and that of JTIII in Henry. It is not that he was outstanding, but rather that he contributed significant minutes in a critical part of the game.

We cannot enter every game hoping that Monroe and Summers do not get into foul trouble or get injured, or do not have an off day. Ditto for the guard rotation. Clark is further along than Henry or Vaughn, but this was a necessary step for this team. It is an incredibly young team and if by some miracle they are all back--minus Sapp- they will be top 5 next year.

For all those frustrated with Freeman or Wright, please remember they are in their 2nd year (actually Wright is really 1st year) and that neither have the presence of a Wallace, Ewing or Hibbert to steady the team after a mistake. These guys are really fantastic players and they will only get better--if they are allowed to grow and given a rest.

I am enjoying this year. This team is a treat to watch. No Turnover Machine Jeremiah Rivers who basically made it playing 4 on 6 on offense and cost us 6 points a game. And no one dimensional/liability players like Wallace and Hibbert who were defensive liabilities, couldn't penetrate and lacked athleticism which offset there offensive firepower.

This team is very good and we should enjoy it while we can. (Before Monroe leaves). They should only get better this year as they get more experience and learn the system. I'm glad that JT3 is giving Simms and Clarke so much PT so that they will be useful come the tournaments.

[mapei]

Jan 10, 2009 18:08:56 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

IAnd no one dimensional/liability players like Wallace and Hibbert who were defensive liabilities, couldn't penetrate and lacked athleticism which offset there offensive firepower.

Gee, that must be why they lost so many Big East games and did so poorly in the postseason. May your own good deeds be judged the same way.

[professorhoya]

Jan 10, 2009 18:17:43 GMT -5 mapei said:

Gee, that must be why they lost so many Big East games and did so poorly in the postseason. May your own good deeds be judged the same way.

No, it's just a different style of play and player. Last your team had no chemistry. Hibbert and Wallace are certain types of players that need to be complemented by players who can cover there weaknesses. We didn't do that last year because we had Jeremiah in there instead of Patrick.

I think a good example I can give you is Larry Brown coached teams in Indiana and Philly. Larry could take a player who was limited in certain areas like Rick Smits and Mark Jackson and combine him with more athletic players like Dale Davis and Derrick Mckey so that the sum was greater then the parts.

That's what had to happen with last years team based on the type of players we had.

This years team, the players are all more balanced, more athletic can create their own shot, defend, and penetrate. When you have a team like that they are more interchangeable and it's easier to get the chemistry you need.

[MCIGuy]

Well who were the great defensive players on last year's team that made up for Roy and Wallace's deficiencies? Certainly no one was calling Austin or DaJuan great defensive players last season and Ewing Jr was coming off the bench. Ask BE Player of the Year Harangody if its easier to score off this season's Hoyas than last season's. The Hoyas led the nation in fg % defense alst season and surely Hibbert played a major part in that with his height and Walalce played a big role to by playing smart and being aware of his limitations.

I don't mind if folks prefer this season's team over last season's. I don't mind if Barker Davis and fans already annoit Wright and Monroe as being superior to Wallace and Hibbert. And I don't mind people pointing out the obvious that guys like Wright and Monroe are more versatile and more athletic than Wallace and Hibbert. But give respect where its due to a couple of guys who were as responsible as anyone for returning Gtown to glory. You may not have enjoyed last season's team as much but that team won another BE regular season title. And while Hibbert and Wallace fall short to Monroe and Wright in some areas, in others they are better. In all my years of watching and taping Gtown hoops (starting with Zo's frosh season) I have never felt as confident about a Hoya guard taking an outside shot as Wallace. And during that same stretch I have never felt as good about a Hoya big man being able to get off and make a contested shot when he catches the ball inside as Hibbert (Zo mostly got fouled, Sweetney was a beast but his height disadvantage led to his having a worse fg% than a guy like Roy and while Mutombo had an overall higher fg% anyone who watched knows it was mostly by way of lobs, uncontested dunks and putback slams).

[CTHoya08]

Roy was a defensive liability? Really?

[professorhoya]

Jan 10, 2009 19:09:52 GMT -5 CTHoya08 said:

Roy was a defensive liability? Really?

Yeah, he wasn't the best defensive rebounder unless the ball came right to him.

Monroe cleans the glass if it's in his general area, and has the ability to tip/volleyball the ball to himself. Roy wasn't like that, like I said last year Roy reminded me of Rik Smits. Great offensive Shooter but lacked athelticsm and rebounding.

[professorhoya]

Jan 10, 2009 19:07:04 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Well who were the great defensive players on last year's team that made up for Roy and Wallace's deficiencies? Certainly no one was calling Austin or DaJuan great defensive players last season and Ewing Jr was coming off the bench. Ask BE Player of the Year Harangody if its easier to score off this season's Hoyas than last season's. The Hoyas led the nation in fg % defense alst season and surely Hibbert played a major part in that with his height and Walalce played a big role to by playing smart and being aware of his limitations.

I don't mind if folks prefer this season's team over last season's. I don't mind if Barker Davis and fans already annoit Wright and Monroe as being superior to Wallace and Hibbert. And I don't mind people pointing out the obvious that guys like Wright and Monroe are more versatile and more athletic than Wallace and Hibbert. But give respect where its due to a couple of guys who were as responsible as anyone for returning Gtown to glory. You may not have enjoyed last season's team as much but that team won another BE regular season title. And while Hibbert and Wallace fall short to Monroe and Wright in some areas, in others they are better. In all my years of watching and taping Gtown hoops (starting with Zo's frosh season) I have never felt as confident about a Hoya guard taking an outside shot as Wallace. And during that same stretch I have never felt as good about a Hoya big man being able to get off and make a contested shot when he catches the ball inside as Hibbert (Zo mostly got fouled, Sweetney was a beast but his height disadvantage led to his having a worse fg% than a guy like Roy and while Mutombo had an overall higher fg% anyone who watched knows it was mostly by way of lobs, uncontested dunks and putback slams).

I don't disagree with you at all.

But fact was last year's team was missing something from the beginning. And alot of it was chemistry, having the complements to make up for the weaknesses. The year before that they had that in Jeff Green because he provided the athleticism and versatility to complement Hibbert and Wallace's offensive shooting ability.

I see the same type of complaining going on this year as last year but this years team is alot better then last years team because like I said last year's team was limited. Their experience helped them win games but more times then not the limitations (and Jeremieah) cost them games they should have won.

This years team is only going to get better as they get experience and learn the system.

[MCIGuy]

No one will suggest Roy was a great rebounder or that he had athleticism. I think the point some of us are making is that he was tougher to score over than you are giving him credit for. No one on this current Hoya roster is as big of a deterrent in the paint as Roy was. They may be better in other areas but not in that one. Not yet at least.

[professorhoya]

Jan 10, 2009 19:18:24 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

No one will suggest Roy was a great rebounder or that he had athleticism. I think the point some of us are making is that he was tougher to score over than you are giving him credit for. No one on this current Hoya roster is as big of a deterrent in the paint as Roy was. They may be better in other areas but not in that one. Not yet at least.

I would disagree. Roys Size of course made him a defensive threat in College Basketball. But I think Monroe is a much bigger Defensive Force and changes how teams approach the lane in much the same way that Ewing and Zo did.

[williambraskyiii]

Jan 10, 2009 19:21:22 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

Jan 10, 2009 19:18:24 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

No one will suggest Roy was a great rebounder or that he had athleticism. I think the point some of us are making is that he was tougher to score over than you are giving him credit for. No one on this current Hoya roster is as big of a deterrent in the paint as Roy was. They may be better in other areas but not in that one. Not yet at least.

I would disagree. Roys Size of course made him a defensive threat in College Basketball. But I think Monroe is a much bigger Defensive Force and changes how teams approach the lane in much the same way that Ewing and Zo did.

This couldn't be more inaccurate...Roy wasn't the best rebounder and he found himself out of position frequently when he switched on the perimeter, but if you don't think teams changed their gameplan because of his 7'3 presence in the paint, you're crazy...practically every coach in conference mentioned this as a prominent factor in approaching games with georgetown...i don't think coaches think that about Greg defensively at this point with nearly the same focus as with Roy.

[MCIGuy]

Jan 10, 2009 19:21:22 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

Jan 10, 2009 19:18:24 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

No one will suggest Roy was a great rebounder or that he had athleticism. I think the point some of us are making is that he was tougher to score over than you are giving him credit for. No one on this current Hoya roster is as big of a deterrent in the paint as Roy was. They may be better in other areas but not in that one. Not yet at least.

I would disagree. Roys Size of course made him a defensive threat in College Basketball. But I think Monroe is a much bigger Defensive Force and changes how teams approach the lane in much the same way that Ewing and Zo did.

And I would really disagree with that. I don't think teams are worried about going inside at all against Monroe as they were against Hibbert. I especially don't see opposing players get the ball inside close to the basket only to toss it back out because they come to the realization that the guy standing right next to them is at least 7'2. And in the Hoyas two recent losses I saw two very good big men exploit Monroe inside in a way that they didn't do when Hibbert was going against them (yes, for all the folks out there who say otherwise Blair never had as dynamic a double-double performance against Roy as he did last Saturday against Greg). Now granted Blair and Gody are a year older and wiser. And of course Greg is just a freshman. Obviously that's a big difference. That's why I indicated perhaps in time Greg's ability to clog and defend the paint will be better that Roy's. At this moment though it ain't. Blair didn't have much luck backing down Roy and scoring over him. Its easier for him to do that to Greg. Now...what Greg can do much better is switch and recover. His timing on his blocks is also better than Roy's, however I think its nuts to suggest Greg comes close to having the effect on defense as Ewing and Mourning did.

[Nevada Hoya]

Jan 10, 2009 19:07:04 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Well who were the great defensive players on last year's team that made up for Roy and Wallace's deficiencies? Certainly no one was calling Austin or DaJuan great defensive players last season and Ewing Jr was coming off the bench. Ask BE Player of the Year Harangody if its easier to score off this season's Hoyas than last season's. The Hoyas led the nation in fg % defense alst season and surely Hibbert played a major part in that with his height and Walalce played a big role to by playing smart and being aware of his limitations.

I don't mind if folks prefer this season's team over last season's. I don't mind if Barker Davis and fans already annoit Wright and Monroe as being superior to Wallace and Hibbert. And I don't mind people pointing out the obvious that guys like Wright and Monroe are more versatile and more athletic than Wallace and Hibbert. But give respect where its due to a couple of guys who were as responsible as anyone for returning Gtown to glory. You may not have enjoyed last season's team as much but that team won another BE regular season title. And while Hibbert and Wallace fall short to Monroe and Wright in some areas, in others they are better. In all my years of watching and taping Gtown hoops (starting with Zo's frosh season) I have never felt as confident about a Hoya guard taking an outside shot as Wallace. And during that same stretch I have never felt as good about a Hoya big man being able to get off and make a contested shot when he catches the ball inside as Hibbert (Zo mostly got fouled, Sweetney was a beast but his height disadvantage led to his having a worse fg% than a guy like Roy and while Mutombo had an overall higher fg% anyone who watched knows it was mostly by way of lobs, uncontested dunks and putback slams).

Agree totally, MCI.

[GIGAFAN99]

But back to the lucky foul trouble. If in fact Henry ends up being a 15-20 minute option at 4, this team just got a whole lot better and not just because of depth.

If a Summers, Sims, Monroe lineup is playable as we get to March the Hoyas have basically developed a second look for teams to deal with. You spend a few minutes dealing with Austin anf then he gets replaced by some 6-10 guy who is pretty much exactly the opposite instead of the "same only not quite as good" situation we have with Omar.

[jerseyhoya34]

MCI is spot on in this thread. Nobody has ever argued that Roy/Jon were perfect. Hell, Jon took a pretty good bashing many years for not being "athletic" or having that game that would get people to whistle at you in Rucker Park. After all, he was a walk on who earned a scholarship in the program and turned into the best 3 point shooter the program has ever seen.

A great disservice is paid to Roy, Jon, Jeff, and Pat by this sort of post hoc nonsense. As it stood in early spring 2004, Jeff had not qualified, Jon was not even on any GU radar screen because he was not recruited by the previous coach, Pat was in Indiana, and Roy was a stiff but a recruitable stiff because he had shown skill. All 4 could have ended up elsewhere, and good counsel would have suggested it given the turmoil that had surrounded the program for a couple of years. But, all 4 chose Georgetown and we are better off for it.

[professorhoya]

Jan 10, 2009 19:37:07 GMT -5 MCIGuy said:

Jan 10, 2009 19:21:22 GMT -5 professorhoya said:

I would disagree. Roys Size of course made him a defensive threat in College Basketball. But I think Monroe is a much bigger Defensive Force and changes how teams approach the lane in much the same way that Ewing and Zo did.

And I would really disagree with that. I don't think teams are worried about going inside at all against Monroe as they were against Hibbert. I especially don't see opposing players get the ball inside close to the basket only to toss it back out because they come to the realization that the guy standing right next to them is at least 7'2. And in the Hoyas two recent losses I saw two very good big men exploit Monroe inside in a way that they didn't do when Hibbert was going against them (yes, for all the folks out there who say otherwise Blair never had as dynamic a double-double performance against Roy as he did last Saturday against Greg). Now granted Blair and Gody are a year older and wiser. And of course Greg is just a freshman. Obviously that's a big difference. That's why I indicated perhaps in time Greg's ability to clog and defend the paint will be better that Roy's. At this moment though it ain't. Blair didn't have much luck backing down Roy and scoring over him. Its easier for him to do that to Greg. Now...what Greg can do much better is switch and recover. His timing on his blocks is also better than Roy's, however I think its nuts to suggest Greg comes close to having the effect on defense as Ewing and Mourning did.

You forget that Greg's a Freshman. And you're comparing him to a 4 year Roy.

It's early in the season, Greg will only get better as the season goes on. He was sealed off by Blair down low, that's true, but he didn't have the help from an undersized front court (6-4 Freeman at Forward). That's why Simms/Vaughn's development is critical as they can seal off Blair and let Monroe roam and come from the weakside.

I think you have to look at the big picture. The way opposing teams guard are reacting is what I am looking at. Against Hibbert they knew they had the speed to blow by him or move away from him. With Monroe you can't do that because he has the range to move through the whole box and especially cover ground to provide help defense. The opponents guards are hesitating any time they sense Monroe (and even when he's not there because of his presence) and even on the fast break. That's huge.

Roy's a big tall guy, so yeah he's gonna get blocks and be effective against big guys like Blair, but 7-4 Rik Smits got his blocks too and he was not a great defensive presence. (One of the best Offensive centers though during that time period though)

Monroe's defensive presence is huge. It's no comparison in my book.

[professorhoya]

Jan 10, 2009 19:56:20 GMT -5 @jerseyhoya34 said:

MCI is spot on in this thread. Nobody has ever argued that Roy/Jon were perfect. Hell, Jon took a pretty good bashing many years for not being "athletic" or having that game that would get people to whistle at you in Rucker Park. After all, he was a walk on who earned a scholarship in the program and turned into the best 3 point shooter the program has ever seen.

A great disservice is paid to Roy, Jon, Jeff, and Pat by this sort of post hoc nonsense. As it stood in early spring 2004, Jeff had not qualified, Jon was not even on any GU radar screen because he was not recruited by the previous coach, Pat was in Indiana, and Roy was a stiff but a recruitable stiff because he had shown skill. All 4 could have ended up elsewhere, and good counsel would have suggested it given the turmoil that had surrounded the program for a couple of years. But, all 4 chose Georgetown and we are better off for it.

Strawman.

Nobody is arguing that.

The point is that this years team is good, alot better then last years. Different types of players but what this team has is chemistry. I'm detecting some of the same negativity to this years team that we had last year but my point is this year's team is much better.

Jon was great but he was a non athletic Shooting Guard in a Point Guard's body. So that put you in certain disadvantages, which he compensated for with his amazing shooting. If his shots weren't falling though we were in trouble especially last year when we didn't have the personnel or the team chemistry to complement his strengths. I see Jon as a Steve Kerr type who can be a final piece to a Championship team if you surround him with the right players. We didn't have those players last year so it was doomed from the start.

This years team is different because like I said they are athletic, and mutliskilled. I would enjoy it while Monroe is still here, because a team like this isn't going to come around often.

[professorhoya]

Jan 10, 2009 19:54:49 GMT -5 GIGAFAN99 said:

But back to the lucky foul trouble. If in fact Henry ends up being a 15-20 minute option at 4, this team just got a whole lot better and not just because of depth.

If a Summers, Sims, Monroe lineup is playable as we get to March the Hoyas have basically developed a second look for teams to deal with. You spend a few minutes dealing with Austin anf then he gets replaced by some 6-10 guy who is pretty much exactly the opposite instead of the "same only not quite as good" situation we have with Omar.

I think A Summers, Simms/Vaughn/ Monroe Lineup is going to have to happen if we are going to go far. Especially since in 6 games in the tournament, one of our bigs is bound to be in foul trouble.

I would also like to see the 6-9 Mescherikov develop so he can be usefull. It doesn't look like that's going to happen but I just always have this hope that he will turn into even half of what Andre Kirilenko is.

[idhoya]

If he wasn't so scary he'd have gotten run already. Really just need spot up shooting and solid defense.

[professorhoya]

Jan 10, 2009 20:23:19 GMT -5 idhoya said:

If he wasn't so scary he'd have gotten run already. Really just need spot up shooting and solid defense.

Yeah I hear what you are saying but for some reason I can't help but think he's a diamond in the rough. Those Russian Players that come over here are usually really good.