hoyainspirit
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Post by hoyainspirit on Nov 13, 2008 12:33:14 GMT -5
I agree with 'rooter. Just not sure I buy the chemistry argument on the court. They seemed to play well together to my untrained eye. Off the court, who knows? Had last year's squad not blown a huge first half lead to an unconscious Curry, I believe they could have done significant damage in the tourney.
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Omega
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Post by Omega on Nov 14, 2008 9:00:26 GMT -5
If there wasn't tension on last year’s team, then none of the players should be wearing a GU uniform. It’s natural that when you bring in talented players, the returning players are going to feel a bit threatened. There is always going to be animosity when you have experienced players who are maintaining their status because they know the system and more talented players whose only reason for not playing is because they don’t know the system. The talent on last year's team was in the Sophomore and Freshman classes. The old guard (Roy, Pat, Wallace, Crawford, and Sapp) needed to play at a slower pace to be successful (Sapp and Pat to a lesser extent). The young guns (Wright, Freeman, Summers, Rivers, and Macklin) could all thrive in an open system. From my vantage point, it appeared that JT was struggling trying to define the identity of the team—does he play at a slower pace to hide the deficiencies of the old guard, or does he turn the team over to the young guns and go up and down (like his father did with Iverson/Harrington)? In the early season he tried to do both by having two line ups—one for running and the other for the grind it out half court. Once Wright got hurt he went to the grind it out half court team in which Macklin and Rivers struggled. In essence you can say that JT recruited over Pat, Wallace, Crawford, and Sapp. That is never a good feeling for players.
It must have been very tough in practice when the young guns were doing their thing, but were doing it outside of the structure of the system. It’s like when you do a math problem and only show the answer, but the teacher wants to see the work. It’s my guess that the young guns had the answers but lacked the fundamental understanding of why they had to do something a certain way.
JT is paid to win basketball games. As the talent continues to get better, there will most certainly be team tension. Rivers and Macklin transferred out because they got recruited over.
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guru
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Post by guru on Nov 14, 2008 9:13:22 GMT -5
i agree. But, if barker did that, by writing so and so said this or so and so said that, i bet he would quickly find himself with out access to the team. agreed jgalt, but he is already starting to make his bed with the program by writing this stuff. right now it is now officially a rumor that barker is perpetuating-- it is a rumor b/c he has not given us any evidence. if barker is wrong then the program is already really really mad at him for spreading lies. if he is right then i would imagine the program would still be mad at him. why would the program want this kind of stuff in print? how would it help the program for everyone to know this stuff? and barker did not even mention any sources-- whether they be unnamed source, persons close to the team, friends of players etc, etc. Are these his thoughts? are these facts? are these other people's thoughts? this is irresponsible journalism any way you slice it. and i imagine the program is not happy any way you slice it. I don't disagree, but I get the feeling that Barker has a good relationship with the program and JT3 in particular, so I tend to trust what he writes. A smart coach usually keeps a few media members close in order to dole out information when it needs to get out (as an extreme example, think Will McDonough during the Pats' Parcells days) and I think Barker may be useful to JT3 for that purpose.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 14, 2008 10:34:43 GMT -5
If there wasn't tension on last year’s team, then none of the players should be wearing a GU uniform. It’s natural that when you bring in talented players, the returning players are going to feel a bit threatened. There is always going to be animosity when you have experienced players who are maintaining their status because they know the system and more talented players whose only reason for not playing is because they don’t know the system. The talent on last year's team was in the Sophomore and Freshman classes. Some of those guys could get up and down the floor better than Roy but I'm not sure if any other player from the underclassmen group on last season's team was more talented than him as far as being a basketball player. Possible exception is DaJaun Summers. However if you mean overall amongst the groups then you may have a point. I gotta take issue with some of this. First of all there is no "to a lesser extent" when it comes to Ewing Jr. He would have thrived better than any player last season in an uptempo system. He was made for the uptempo game and would have been a great weapon on the fastbreak. But since Gtown never ran that option never materialized. Your to-a-lesser-extent comment was probably spot on with Sapp. As long as he isn't the primary ball handler for most of the game Sapp could definitely play well in a more uptempo style. But its the Roy stuff that worries me because far too many folks use him as an explanation for why JT did not have his teams run more the past four seasons. But here are a few counters to that argument, a couple of which has been brought up before: 1)Roy didn't start for most of his freshman season. Why then weren't the Hoyas running much more with Jeff Green as an undersized but athletic and quick center during that initial campaign? Was it because of Depth? The guys still learning the system? 2)I can't recall another "star" Hoya player like Roy who spent so much time on the bench. This often happened for reasons like Roy's lack of stamina, JTIII feeling going small would be better for the team and JTIII likely thinking the Princeton system worked better with a guy like Green being the five man. So how come with Roy being on the bench so much the Hoyas still never increased their tempo? 3)I know Roy has improved his stamina and body the past few months but are we really willing to believe that a guy who seems more than capable of running the court in the more wide open NBA was such a burden to any thought of a faster offense for Gtown when he was suiting up for the blue and grey? That seems like a little bit of a cop out. If III had wanted to emphasize the fastbreak I'm sure Roy would have tried his best to accommodate on that end. Besides considering how little Roy would shoot the ball (or even touch it on some occasions) in the halfcourt suggests that emphasizing the halfcourt game to maximize Roy's abilities and advantages wasn't all that important either. So why not run more? 4)The Showtime Lakers of the 80s had old, slow Jabbar bringing up the rear during fast breaks, and Sabonis did that as well for the Blazers during the 90s. Neither of those guys were fleet of foot during that part of their careers and yet both of their teams emphasized fastbreak basketball, thriving in that style of play in fact. This leads me to believe that a team that runs doesn't necessarily need all five players to be speed demons in order to make the fastbreak an offensive weapon. Do people think that Austin, Jesse and DaJuan couldn't push the ball more because Roy was often a (distant) trailer? Austin essentially told HR in an interview (posted this week) that he doesn't believe JTIII will change his approach in terms of how much the team runs. Now maybe Austin was misquoted, maybe he interpreted the question differently, maybe he doesn't know what he's talking about, etc. But it makes me curious. I'm REALLY hoping III takes off the reigns this season and lets the guys be more aggressive on offense. This is the development I'll be keeping a eye on.
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Dhall
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Post by Dhall on Nov 14, 2008 12:37:13 GMT -5
Lot's of good points MCI, especially about Jabbar. In fact, a fast-breaking team does not need a center who can run the court at all. A fast break is not 5 guys running down the court, it is usually one quick outlet pass (often from a plodding center) and then one or two guys out ahead of everyone else. So I agree that it's unlikely this year will see much more of it, but if Monroe truly is an excellent passer then he can get the break started by making that first pass out to guys like Wright and Freeman who know what to when they get it. My own view is that which I think JTIII shares: halfcourt offense wins close games, and so you better focus on that first because you have to expect that you are going to be in close games, especially against good teams at the end of the year.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2008 12:52:54 GMT -5
I think the amount of fastbreaking has a lot more to do with the ballhandlers -- and quantity of them -- than it does the center.
If you only have one ballhandler that the coach trusts, then the ball is going to go to them. The more players you have who can bring it up, the quicker the outlet pass gets out and the quicker people play. I think the addition of Wright and Clark will do more than Monroe.
I also think defensive rebounding is a key. If you can't rely on your froncourt to rebound, your guards have to. And then they aren't in position to beat the opposition down the court.
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Post by jyd on Nov 14, 2008 13:09:30 GMT -5
agreed jgalt, but he is already starting to make his bed with the program by writing this stuff. right now it is now officially a rumor that barker is perpetuating-- it is a rumor b/c he has not given us any evidence. if barker is wrong then the program is already really really mad at him for spreading lies. if he is right then i would imagine the program would still be mad at him. why would the program want this kind of stuff in print? how would it help the program for everyone to know this stuff? and barker did not even mention any sources-- whether they be unnamed source, persons close to the team, friends of players etc, etc. Are these his thoughts? are these facts? are these other people's thoughts? this is irresponsible journalism any way you slice it. and i imagine the program is not happy any way you slice it. I don't disagree, but I get the feeling that Barker has a good relationship with the program and JT3 in particular, so I tend to trust what he writes. A smart coach usually keeps a few media members close in order to dole out information when it needs to get out (as an extreme example, think Will McDonough during the Pats' Parcells days) and I think Barker may be useful to JT3 for that purpose. Parcells/McDonough would be an extreme example. Interesting thought about 3 using Barker in a similar way. If 3 is using Barker in that way then he really did not hold back. Referring to a player's "ego" is not something I have ever heard 3 do. I have only heard him say positive things about Roy. Also, people have indicated chemistry issues with last year's team but no one has ever specifically cited Roy's "ego".
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Nov 14, 2008 13:36:13 GMT -5
I don't believe we are going to abandon the Princeton concepts JT3 has been working into our offense the last 4 years to suddenly become a running team.
But I do believe that JT3 is a very smart coach who emphasizes the things his players do well and covers for the things they don't. Roy and Jon were especially adept at the slower paced, run our offense till someone gets an open, easy shot Georgetown Offense. It wasn't so much that Roy couldn't keep up with a faster offense, it was that a faster offense would leave Roy out and not take advantage of his strengths.
But now we have faster guys. And we have more good ballhandlers (we think). And we do NOT have a 7'2 guy who shoots 65% or better.
I don't think we are going to abandon any or our offense, but we will add more "opportunity" breaks. And -- I sincerely hope -- we will also ATTACK the press. This team has been susceptible to pressing due to limited ball handling options AND because we settle for just getting across the half court line. Once we did that, we got back into our deliberate offense, but with less time to run it. Less time makes it less effective.
We never made teams PAY for pressing us by breaking the press and heading straight for the Hoop. As MCIGuy pointed out, Pat Jr. was perfectly able to fill that role and take the ball strong to the hoop. But we didn't do it.
Couple more things to think about. That big DUke victory a couple years back was played at a REALLY fast pace. Why? Duke chose to go man-to-man with us, but our guys were quicker and more athletic than they were. And... we ran our GU offense, but faster.
The UNC game was also played at a faster pace, but vs. a Ref crew that heavily favored UNC - or at least one ref did. Once that stopped in the second half, GU upped the pressure, started getting every defensive rebound, and UNC cracked under the pressure.
That is what I see happening with this team -- as the season progresses and the team understands the system and their roles.
IMHO, we will apply more pressure on D, will attack the press, will run when the opportunities present themselves and will run our basic offense more quickly. But the underpinning of all of this will be the solid, proven Princeton concepts of running our offense, taking what the Defense gives us, and scoring at a high rate in terms of points per possession rather than points per game.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 14, 2008 13:56:16 GMT -5
SirSaxa, good post but the one problem with bringing up the Duke and UNC games is that you are referring to two teams that not only prefer to run all game and take quick shots, but also typically have the level of talent to do it well. The Hoyas almost had no choice but to keep up when they faced those two teams in those now classic games. And lets face it....the defense of those two ACC squads aren't great in the first place. They WANTED the Hoyas to take quick shots and were simply expecting to hit a higher percentage than Gtown. Unfortunately (or fortunately) the Hoyas won't be running into many squads like that on a regular basis.
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Post by TrueHoyaBlue on Nov 14, 2008 15:42:24 GMT -5
I think that the fundamentals of the offense will stay the same, but that we will likely see much quicker movement within the half-court sets (particularly as the season goes on and the player become more comfortable with each other's timing and reads).
I think that this team will probably run a bit more than last year's, but my sense is that the speeding up will be in the crispness of passes, cuts, and drives within the offense, than it is a reflection of adding fast breaks as a primary offensive weapon.
As JTIII has mentioned in the past, his offense is based on a series of principles, around ball sharing and high-percentage shots. The faster the team is able to successfully execute those principles, the faster they'll play. But the principles will remain.
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Omega
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Post by Omega on Nov 14, 2008 15:54:57 GMT -5
The Roy Apologetics strikes. No where in my post did I blame Roy. In fact, I mentioned the entire senior class and Sapp as not being adapt at pushing the pace. Yes Ewing was a finisher and would have flourished in a more open system, but he was also out of control. SF hit it on the head. Fast-breaking has very little to do with centers, but rather with the ability of several players on the team to handle the ball. The example cited of Jabbar and Sabonis were good, but you forget to mention their supporting casts. There was no need for them to run the floor because they had elite guards and finishers. Who was the Hoyas elite guard during the first four years of JT’s tenure? Which Hoya guard struck fear in opponents because of their ball handling skills? Why did teams press GU?
Every example (1 through 4) you cited all lead to the same conclusion—the senior class (i.e. the old guard) which was my original point! I implicated the senior class as needing to play a particular style in order to be successful. The post was intended to highlight possible areas of tension.
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OldHoyafan
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Post by OldHoyafan on Nov 14, 2008 18:45:17 GMT -5
I tend to agree with most of MCI's post about JT3's desire not to let the Hoyas run much the last 4 years. I don't believe the fact that Roy was a little slow was the main reason. I think it was a combination of things. I think the first 2 years he was focused on making sure the team learned his system forwards and backwards. He wanted them to trust it in the darkest of times and not revert to running and gunning when they were behind, and that decision served him well the last 2 years in tight games. We must also think about who he would have had to rely on in executing that running game. Wallace, who we all loved and trusted, was not the fleet footed point guard especially while dribbling. Sapp has always been fast enough to run a fast break offense, but he has had a penchant for being a little reckless when driving to the hoop. He has no fear and will challenge anyone like any New York city guard, but I am not so sure JT3 trusted him to make that right decision(drive, dish, pull up and shoot) most of the time. I now think JT3 trusts him as a senior to do that. I also think that Wright has the trust of JT3 to make that right decision right now. Therefore, I think the Hoyas will run more this year because they have the horses at all positions, and the guards are trusted by JT3 to make the right decision to bring the ball back out and run the Princetown offense if the break is not there.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 14, 2008 18:49:11 GMT -5
Omega, you wrote that the senior group needed a slower pace to be successful. I disagreed to an extent and I also pointed out that the seniors, particularly Roy, has been used as a scapegoat to explain why III hasn't incorporated even a hint of a fastbreak attack during his four seasons as head coach at GU. I emphasized Roy because everywhere you turn there is some report that his presence caused Gtown to play slower even though the points I mentioned dispute those claims. In fact when I started rattling off the Roy stuff I pointed out how "too many folks" have used him as a scapegoat in this discussion. "Too many folks" wasn't directed at you.. So drop the apologist nonsense because I wasn't saying you were blaming Roy specifically. Instead I addressed the topic that you brought up and just widened its scope a bit. The only thing I forgot to was bring up Crawford's name because for all we know he too could have benefited from a pressing style and fastbreak attack. He had no handle so the only way for him to score was by hitting an open jumper in the halfcourt and, possibly, finishing on the break in the open court.
I disagree with your argument concerning Ewing too. He could be out of control almost exclusively in halfcourt situations. I don't recall though his aggressiveness being a hindrance at any time during those rare moments in which he was able to run the court in a Hoya uniform. At the very least he had enough skill to dribble one or two times on the break and most importantly he had the height, athleticism and strength to be a tremendous finisher. In my opinion there is no one on this current team, even those guys with better ball dribbling skills and superior basketball IQ, who could be as dangerous as a trailer as Ewing.
Again I think Freeman's comment may be a bit telling that the Hoyas could be playing the same style this upcoming season.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Nov 14, 2008 19:42:44 GMT -5
We're obviously not going to be a running team. Our number of possessions per game is almost undoubtedly going to be below average. Whether it's Thompson's comments or Austin's comments or just common sense -- the offense is still going to wait for a good shot, and we're still going to have a strong half-court offense.
That said, I'd like to see the pace pick up in that we attack when there is an advantage. Attack the press. Fast break more, but don't make it the only offense. Move more and faster in the halfcourt.
We were an abysmal fast break team the last couple of years even when we did run. If anyone at all was back, we simply didn't finish all that well on the break. Poor ballhandling, poor finishing at the rim. Some of that personnel is still here, but my hope is we'll be much better at converting when we do run, and that will make us run a bit more.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Nov 14, 2008 23:42:50 GMT -5
I don't think think the offense will change much, other than it is less likely to focus on certain aspects (i.e. dumping into the low post). I expect a much cleaner offense this year less focused on exploiting matchups. In the past few years, the offense has almost been too unselfish because definable strengths existed on the court and players with significant potential deferred to more senior players. I think we'll see a lot less of that this year, which will give an impression of the offense "opening."
I also expect to force many more turnovers, and, as a result, to get more fast break opportunities that will drive up our total number of possessions. I also expect defensive rebounding to improve, and perimeter ballhandling to improve, the combination creating opportunities to push a more uptempo style. I expect the staff to recognize this as the "matchup" advantage this team possesses, much like Roy and Jeff were matchup advantages in the recent past.
100-36 is a tremendous record for any group of 4-year student-athletes. I do not expect that record to worsen.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 15, 2008 9:19:05 GMT -5
We were an abysmal fast break team the last couple of years even when we did run. If anyone at all was back, we simply didn't finish all that well on the break. Poor ballhandling, poor finishing at the rim. Some of that personnel is still here, but my hope is we'll be much better at converting when we do run, and that will make us run a bit more. It was either Bilas or Katz who, two years ago when watching dozens of teams' early practices, wrote that Gtown worked on the fastbreak much less than any other team he had seen. By far. That would explain in part why the Hoyas' fastbreak looked abysmal in real games.
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royski
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Post by royski on Mar 10, 2009 19:55:58 GMT -5
We disappointed.
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tjm62
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Post by tjm62 on Mar 10, 2009 22:23:01 GMT -5
I see my skepticism of 4 months ago was warranted. I will make sure to be extra pessimistic next year.
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prhoya
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Post by prhoya on Mar 11, 2009 16:21:25 GMT -5
Got to give it to you, except for the Austin-Wallace mention. Jon's shoes are looking bigger and more difficult to fill.
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