Coaching needs to take some blame

[dchoyafan]

Feb 12, 2008 19:45:07 GMT -5 blueandgray said:

I was shocked myself with JT3's statement that he was happy how we got the ball to Roy. I for one was pulling my hair out as River's never once passed the ball into Roy and I don't think we went to Roy nearly enough...especially when Nova's two bigs fouled out. At a time when we should have been going to the post almost every possession...he sat Roy. I just didn't understand that.

I completely agree. Unfortunately, that is a trend I've been seeing quite a lot. Roy will come in during a close game with the team momentarily refocused on feeding him the ball, G'town will somehow rattle off a big run, then JT3 will sit Hibbert and kill the momentum. For an All-American who is clearly our team's best player, Hibbert plays very few minutes. Although he is extremely efficient and already a potential game-breaker in the minutes he gets, Hibbert could be a consistent and truly game-changing force if JT3 just had a killer instinct. Why not keep him on the floor when we have the chance to put the game away? Maddeningly enough, game after game Hibbert simply sits on the bench for what feels like forever.


The question: why?

Because Hibbert is badly out of shape or somehow injured? (This obviously could have huge late-season -or maybe NBA Draft-) implications that I just won't bother with here.
Foul trouble? (sometimes, but not nearly always- Roy has improved from last year in that department).
Because JT3 is still "saving" him for the big tournament games or trying to get younger players experience? (this hardly seems possible anymore at this point in the season)

The worst case would be if JT3 is simply feeling the flow of the game uncharacteristically badly, or just being repeatedly out-coached. Other teams seem to know how to take our center out of the game on defense (by keeping the ball out of his hands, or at least trying to), but JT3 himself takes Roy out even more frequently and certainly more effectively just by sitting him on the bench for long stretches.

For the record, by the way, I believe that JT3 is an amazing coach who has brought so much more to Georgetown than this specific coaching oversight could possibly take away). I hope he will lead the program through as many decades as his father did. That said, I can't see why JT3's unusual substitution pattern for his "part time" All-American center is somehow never a center of attention, when it is a pattern that has a potentially surprising impact on many games. Seriously, why is Roy playing so few minutes? That has as much if not more impact than the guards' inability to pass it in to him.

[I Bleed Hoya Gray]

Two things:

Feb 12, 2008 20:39:18 GMT -5 hoyafoeva said:

So you are saying Rafferty, Bilas, Elmore, are wrong about the interior passes that are not being made to Roy. I've been saying all last year GIVE ROY THE BALL!

You notice his spelling of Raftery?

hoyatalk2.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=15232

Hmm...

Feb 13, 2008 3:04:37 GMT -5 dchoyafan said:

For an All-American who is clearly our team's best player, Hibbert plays very few minutes. Although he is extremely efficient and already a potential game-breaker in the minutes he gets, Hibbert could be a consistent and truly game-changing force if JT3 just had a killer instinct. Why not keep him on the floor when we have the chance to put the game away? Maddeningly enough, game after game Hibbert simply sits on the bench for what feels like forever.

Hibbert played 32 minutes on Monday. That's the most minutes outside of Syracuse (OT), Connecticut, and Alabama. And against Nova he was playing most of the second half with three fouls.

[canissaxa]

Interesting points and interesting posts.

I don't want to completely take it as an article of faith that JTIII is an infallible coach, but I remember being at one of the first JTIII-coached home game (from about the 2nd row since tickets were ridiculously easy to come by in those days) and noticing an impressive improvement in how well coached the players seemed. And that was on a 20+ point blowout by Temple if I recall. And at the time, I wasn't enough of a fan (or student of the game) to really believe that JTIII was anything more than a publicity stunt of a coaching selection. How wrong I was.

That said, I was in row M of section 417 against 'Nova and screaming my head off in frustration when we stopped going inside to Roy after he had fouled out two of their bigs and when we didn't go for the 2 for 1 in the last 50 seconds.

So here's how I'm reconciling my issues with some of JTIII's coaching decisions: I wonder (and I say this with the utmost respect for Roy as a young man, quality representitive of the university, and a basketball player who has made incredible strides in his four years at Georgetown) if some of JTIII's decisions aren't due to Roy's areas for improvement. Someone referenced this possibility above w/r/t using Roy at half court for breaking the press, but what about on the entry passes? I completely agree that Roy has shown relatively low ability to catch and score from a lob entry pass pass even when guarded by a shorter player. Either he brings the ball down low to get stripped or the more mobile defender will slip around Roy and knock away the pass. I've also seen the later problem on bounce passes. The thing is, Roy is incredibly efficient when he gets the ball in the low post and passes well out of the double team, but he may not have the quickness and to a lesser extent the hands to gather the entry pass in the way that Sweetney used to. And if we started to make this team more one dimensional offensively to run everything through Roy, teams would be able to focus more and more on exploiting this weakness. Since we only run about 1/4 of our offense through Roy in the low post currently, teams can't focus exclusively on shutting him down.

So if the problem is with Roy, this would explain also why our guards often don't force the issue of getting him the ball if the pass isn't obviously open. It would be interesting to go back and keep track of how many of our failed attempts at entry passes were blocked by the defending guard versus the defending front-court player.

Footspeed also may explain why Roy switches on every screen: it's not the ability of Rivers or Wallace or Sapp to fight through--it's Roy's ability to get back to his man. This is the only explanation I could come up with for why the coaching staff didn't adjust to Louisville giving us fits off the two-man game with Padget down low.

I also think Roy's relatively weak rebounding for his size are also a matter of footspeed for what it's worth. The number of times where a rebound is collected by a shorter player about 4-6 feet away from Roy--even when Roy isn't boxed out!--is significant.

Regardless of whether my guess about Roy's quickness is true, I'm convinced that his minutes are tied to a fitness issue. I for one was happy to see Roy get a breather in the 2nd half. I didn't want him to pick up a tired 4th foul after playing such smart, controlled defense (sometimes on Reynolds after switches!) since his 3rd. And before anyone thinks that I'm slagging on Roy about fitness, I'm making no judgements about Roy's fitness until I try to play 40 minutes of top-tier D1 college basketball lugging around 280 pounds before I've reached the age of 21 and full physical maturity.

Other thoughts from the Nova game: I thought we actually did a good job of breaking the press. I don't think Nova forced many turnovers because of it. Rivers threw one bad pass and someone was forced to take a timeout after being trapped, but that's all I remember from the press. The rest of the turnovers were due to careless passing in the half court. We didn't capitalize with points in transition, but from my (admittedly distant) perspective I didn't see to many 3 on 2 or 2 on 1 opportunities show up even when Ewing or Summers receved a long pass.

[SFHoya99]

My thoughts on coaching...

• There's no one here that thinks JTIII should be fired, so I think we can all get past any defensiveness over questioning coaching decisions. No one is perfect and no one wants another coach, and until someone actually suggests that, we should all just assume that folks don't mean that.
  
  
• That said, I think III has earned benefit of the doubt. Most, if not all, of the coaching issues we question are tactical/strategic in nature, which is only a small part of coaching. But even then, he has a fantastic track record of success by almost any measurement.
  
  Plus, you know he's smart. You know he knows the game. So I think it benefits us to assume he has a reason for doing something and try to figure that out.
  
  
• So I think Canissaxa has the right POV. III's decisions might not be right, but there is a reason for them. It isn't sheer stupidity. My thoughts:
  
  
• I don't see how it is, but I'm willing to buy the "we're bad passers" argument in getting the ball to Roy. We're sloppy passers elsewhere as well. Roy is not a great target -- he's not quick or a great jumper, so fronting him is especially effective. And while it blows my mind that we aren't even good entry passers, it is much more consistent with other facts than that Jessie is jealous of Roy's success and thus won't pass in.
  
  
• Switching on the perimeter. This one is easy to see. It's just a philosphical decision, but it is a big reason why our FG% defense, especially on 3s, is so high. I actually think that this is one area that Sims/Macklin/Monroe will be better defenders than Roy, although they will possibly lose ground in other areas. We know Roy is going to get isolated in tough spots or get beat on pick and rolls, but we trade it off for the upside.
  
  
• There's no doubt Roy's minutes are tied to fitness. I think where he needs slack is that very few players his size ever reach a level of fitness equal to their counterparts. I don't think it is lack of effort on Roy's part.
  
  
• I personally think Thompson doesn't run many plays -- he lets players run the game. I think this is a big reason why we do so well in close games. But the problem is that you can get away from your strengths b/c I imagine it is much harder to focus on those things when you are actually playing.
  
  
• The things I have trouble finding the another POV on is the press break -- why do we never go to the hoop? I don't get it.
  
  
• And hwy Jessie's minutes are so much lower than last year. Are we really just trying to keep him fresh? I think it has cost us at times.
  
  

[RDF]

Good discussion of things in this thread and a few things I see:

1. III is a great coach/team is very well coached---but he's still a young coach. I think we have to remember he's still in his 8th year as a Head Coach. It means he's still learning some things as well.

2. Staff change. One thing I have personally done that is ignorant is to fail to mention the amazing job the Hoyas have done of adjusting to having half of the coaching staff depart. Coaches Broadus/Johnson and Daryl Prue (who despite not being a coach was an asset to have in his role). Kenya Hunter and Dave Cox have come in and team is still performing--which many think "Well you have III, Burke, Henry...." but it's a change--and the new coaches had to adjust to how things are done and how to communicate with the players--each player has a way they respond better to--and it's not always the HC who does the "pep" talks.

3. In regards to the press breaker--I think Hibbert does fine catching the ball. He was in middle of court 2-3 times--and Hoyas easily beat press and Roy caught the pass just fine. You would like to see PE JR/Summers/Freeman be in the middle--but I'm not sold that Austin's handles/decision making on break are ready to be lead man in attacking press and out of Dajuan/Pat-you have your 2 best finishers having to lead a break because they are the "SF" to speak. That changes next year--you could use Greg Monroe as an outlet and he'll be the best passer on team--you have Summers/whomever else on other side and it's a high percentage look for anyone who wants to press. I think Monroe's passing will make this offense so much more effective-and when you add Wright's speed/explosiveness-it's going to be a lot harder team to press--and one that can punish a press more. Thing is--this year's team has to go with what they have--and I would just like to see more urgency in getting ball inbounded, into the frontcourt, and into the offensive flow.

4. III grew up watching Hoya basketball--but he's more of a Pete Carrill disciple as we all know--and happy for that. I questioned whether Hoyas would be a tough defensive team when I first saw his teams--that has been answered. I didn't know if a true big would flourish in this system--that has been answered. I'm still not certain that if you gave III a personal choice on what type of roster he would like on a team--that a 7'2 center who is a post scorer would be his #1 option. I think he'd prefer a team with guys at every spot who can exploit a defense in every facet--and provide more defensive cross/mis matches. Now I might be 100% wrong--but I do think it's where he needs to realize-this particular team needs Hibbert to play more in paint/around rim and less of the normal offensive system.

I say this because-the PF/Passer role is not there this year. Patrick is closest we have to Jeff--and Pat has been wonderful for the team this year--especially in conference play. He just isn't Jeff Green--and that is NOT a knock-it's just true. He doesn't give you that threat to post or take/make that shot from FT line area--or the ability to take his man one on one if given. So to compensate--we see Roy coming out top to re-set the offense and we're still running our offense (especially zone offense) as we did while Green was here. Another alternative would be to make Roy the "Jeff" in zone offense.
\I'd like to see 5 minutes of zone offense with Roy in the "Jeff" role and Macklin down low. I think Roy can hit that foul line jumpshot-I think he's a fine passer and I think he's skilled enough to make the right decision. Macklin has good post moves and he can pass--which next to his pure speed/quickness is his best offensive asset.

We've seen it in flashes--but I'd really like to see it for a 5 minute stretch and see how Hoyas fare. You surround Hibbert in zone offense with shooters--and have Macklin in post--and Roy can get more touches--make decisions--and if he feeds Vernon--they likely don't double--if they do--you have Roy diving to rim for putback or open at top/ft line for a shot he can make/or pass to someone else who is open. It gives your best offensive player the ball and allows a 7'2 player to see over the zone. If they collapse-you have Dajuan, Jon, Jessie, Pat, Rivers open and better/cleaner looks at hoop on outside or you have dump down to Macklin one on one--where if he doesn't have a shot he can pass it out.

Now the coaches know the capabilities of the players more then I ever could-they have them in practice, etc.....but the zone offense from Georgetown this season isn't very good and that is being kind. The way they handle pressure isn't very good. It's tenative. You don't have to play in a hurry to be aggressive--but you do have to be aggressive with ball--which doesn't mean to take quick shots or always shoot when having numbers-it means you get ball in quickly--you pass/dribble in a manner that gets ball upcourt quickly--and for a good shot or into your offensive sets quick. Secondary looks in basketball before defense is set often result in easy hoops--we saw that against Nova in BET last year, saw it against DePaul this year, and it results in getting a good shot-almost always a hoop/foul or at least gets you into good ball movement.

We'll see how GU Staff adjusts--but I do have faith in them--just want to see them hold the kids more accountable and challenge them to improve/stick to a plan of attack. It's not negative to want to see people improve or pushed to go as far/if not further then anyone thinks is possible. If you don't demand it--it'll never happen. If you don't try different things to improve--you'll never know if that was an answer or ineffective. That is where I'd like to see some more from Staff--but willing to ride it out as they've answered every question I've had to this point.

[Fan Of The Game]

As for the 2 for 1...we were yelling for it in the first half with 50 seconds left...ultimately neither team cared all that much and each team ignored the lack of shot clock as the half closed out and got 3 possessions down the stretch. But I'm still in favor of it.

As for Coach, in III I trust. I know this is a chat board and all things are fair game, but I'd be worried about lightning striking you for starting this post. The guy is just plain successful. Whether our wins have been big or small or whether we amateurs think we know more than Coach, I'll look at our 10-2 Big East record and say "Keep up the good work".

[Fan Of The Game]

One more point...I think it has bugged some people that Freeman has taken a few of our clutch end of game shots and they see it as coaching error that we ended up in that situation. I go the complete other direction...Coach knows these players much better than we do as he gets to see them in practice every day. Freeman is our go-to option by design, not by lack of an executable alternative option.

[paranoya]

Freeman and Dajuan have the sweetest jump shots by far (excluding freeman's recent tendency to hold his hand up and fade away after shots), its a definite possibility that some were by design.

Also Im glad RDF brushed on Roy's passing angles again. When he is the point forward at the foul line in our offense he gets some very unique passing angles to cutters b/c of his height, I would like to see that better utilized this year, last year he did it much better but less of the focus was strictly on him due to Jeff and I believe teams are defending the backdoor cut better this year. Obviously this is not a big problem but it is an interesting sidebar to watch during games and something that can be improved upon.

[757hoyafan]

Feb 12, 2008 19:30:41 GMT -5 EasyEd said:

Maybe coaching needs to take some blame for a 20-3 record.

what he said.....

[SFHoya99]

Re: the zone offense, my wish is that on every play versus a 2-3, either Roy, DaJuan or Austin flashes to the FT line and actually gets the ball. That's all I need. But we have whole possessions where no one flashes and whole possession where someone flashes but never receives the ball.

[ColumbiaHeightsHoya]

My only point on coaching is they continue to have Roy jump out at opposing guards and this sometimes results in an inopportune switch or a late recovery and dunk (a la Padgett). I like the strategy with other bigs, but with Roy I think they should coach him to just jab at the guy and not fully commit. That is my only coaching issue. I would 2nd easy when he said the coaches have to be responsible for our 20-3 record (AWFUL?? Remember the Esh boyz).

[SFHoya99]

Feb 13, 2008 15:28:34 GMT -5 ColumbiaHeightsHoya said:

My only point on coaching is they continue to have Roy jump out at opposing guards and this sometimes results in an inopportune switch or a late recovery and dunk (a la Padgett). I like the strategy with other bigs, but with Roy I think they should coach him to just jab at the guy and not fully commit. That is my only coaching issue. I would 2nd easy when he said the coaches have to be responsible for our 20-3 record (AWFUL?? Remember the Esh boyz).

Right, but I think what you lose if you don't switch are wide open outside shots. I do think Roy is ill-suited, but there is a plus and minus on both sides.

[hoyaparanoia33]

For those questioning Roy being out guarding the outside shooters, here's something Jay Wright said in the postgame press conference.

"Roy Hibbert - there was a play at the beginning of the game that was intimidating to me. We rushed the ball up the right side- Scottie Reynolds had it - and Hibbert just came out and guarded him, got down in his stance, wide, and kept him in front of him. He's a good perimeter defender. It's crazy to say it at 7 foot, but he is."

[Hoya TMF]

RDF: Great points. It's kind of wild to think that JTIII hasn't yet coached a four year cycle of his own players, that he recruits to play in his system. I am also vexed as to why Roy doesn't play that role in the middle of the zone on offense. He has hit that jumper from the free throw line and pulling away from the basket will also draw the defense's center away from the basket. As such, a Pat, Ticket or really any slasher can get an easy basket behind the zone.

[Hoya TMF]

As for Roy's perimeter defense, he's been pretty good in jumping out there and recovering to the big man. As I said after the Lousiville game, Padgett's cuts to the basket were really the first time we were ever beat like that. It seemed like something Pitino drew up those plays after watching our tape. Still, with that one exception it's been working for us. Maybe the problem is that someone else needs to shift down low other than the gaurd who just got picked who will inevitably be late. If a third player shifts on defense rather than just the two defensive players involved in the pick and role, then everyone has a shorter distance to travel and could possibly recover quicker. That's kind of hard to illustrate with words, but whatever.

[dchoyafan]

All I can say is that these have been some excellent posts...

[hoyafoeva]

COACH T, I LOVE YOU MAN, KEEP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING! WE ARE GEORGETOWN!

[mapei]

Feb 14, 2008 1:46:35 GMT -5 dchoyafan said:

All I can say is that these have been some excellent posts...

Absolutely - that sequence of canissaxa-SFHoya-RDF was some of the best basketball analysis/discussion I've read on a chat board. Thanks, guys.

[Deleted]

Feb 14, 2008 10:37:09 GMT -5 hoyafoeva said:

COACH T, I LOVE YOU MAN, KEEP DOING WHAT YOU'RE DOING! WE ARE GEORGETOWN!

What, mapei, you don't consider THIS to be insightful and revealing basketball commentary?!?

You must either be self-internally jealous or a racist!!! WHAT'S IT GONNA BE??!?!?

[EasyEd]

Feb 14, 2008 11:26:14 GMT -5 mapei said:

Feb 14, 2008 1:46:35 GMT -5 dchoyafan said:

All I can say is that these have been some excellent posts...

Absolutely - that sequence of canissaxa-SFHoya-RDF was some of the best basketball analysis/discussion I've read on a chat board. Thanks, guys.

I agree. Many excellent points made by all. Particularly like the tone of the discussion was insightful while respectful.