Airline mergers: Delta+NW, United+Continental

[hoyatables]

I fly United very regularly from DCA - ORD. As a result, I also use it whenever possible for other travel. It's not so bad. I think the big problem with airline travel is that those who don't travel regularly have unreasonable expectations.

Treat airline travel like venturing onto the roads at rush hour (particularly if you're flying at rush hour). Try to start out early, anticipate potential delays, leave yourself enough time for connections (and more time if you are trying a new airport). We all know delays may happen -- so if you absolutely positively HAVE to be somewhere at a certain time, take the earlier flight and get there a few hours early rather than cut it close! People who expect a flying experience to be painless are kidding themselves.

Also, much like traveling on the roads during rush hour, if there is inclement weather, expect further delays and plan accordingly.

Finally, it's a law of averages. I had some godawful experiences at first, but since then it has been *knock on wood* pretty reliable.

[theexorcist]

I fly a fair amount - mostly international (If you hate KC, Frankfurt is awful - it's like a military prison camp that was designed by Escher). Domestically, I've flown Northwest, United, and American. I flew Continental a few years ago. There's not a lot of difference between them - nobody has food, even on flights between Dulles and LA. I tend to think that United has slightly better planes than Northwest, whose seats always seem sort of rickety. United has a better in-flight magazine. Delta has better cookies. That's about it. There's no difference that I've seen between any of them. Even international is fine (United's Economy Plus is worth the price for the legroom, and is approximately the same as British Airways' service).

Short version - only price matters.

[hoyatables]

Yeah, I almost forgot about that -- United's Economy Plus is just brilliant. Great way to generally reward your lowest-level premier members with a decent seat that actually allows enough leg room to break out your laptop and get some work done.

[Coast2CoastHoya]

Feb 13, 2008 8:22:06 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

Short version - only price matters.

Which is really the bottom line for me as well.

I am willing to forgo just about every amenity (in-flight meals & entertainment, beverage options, etc) for low fares. In contrast, I view the "services" that Bando mentioned as more critical to the proper funtioning of an airline and the industry as a whole.

'tables - yeah but you're flying to ORD for a much more fun reason than most of us who fly regularly!

[SFOHoya]

A couple of people have hit on the idea of differentiating your product in order to receive a price premium. I think this is an area where UA has had some success with the aforementioned Economy Plus (essential when the company/client won't spring for business class - I'm pretty sure UA makes $100+ million/yr. off selling economy plus access) and their PS flights (JFK to SFO and LAX) where they offer a higher quality of business and first class service.

Otherwise, the airlines fall to the lowest common denominator demanded by consumers: price.

Back to the mergers, anyone know which of the airlines (DL, NW, UA (union), CO) are union vs. non-union. Merging a union with a non-union should be fun.

[hoyatables]

Feb 13, 2008 10:23:09 GMT -5 Coast2CoastHoya said:

Feb 13, 2008 8:22:06 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

Short version - only price matters.

Which is really the bottom line for me as well.

I am willing to forgo just about every amenity (in-flight meals & entertainment, beverage options, etc) for low fares. In contrast, I view the "services" that Bando mentioned as more critical to the proper funtioning of an airline and the industry as a whole.

'tables - yeah but you're flying to ORD for a much more fun reason than most of us who fly regularly!

That's a very very good point. . Though occassionally it means having to watch Duke basketball and attempt to support them. That part isn't fun.

Back on topic . . . I fly United. I've drank the kool-aid, and believe that FF loyalty just pay once you earn status. UA is a great choice from the DC area because anywhere that UA doesn't get you, US will, and you still get miles.

[DFW HOYA]

Feb 13, 2008 12:45:00 GMT -5 hoyatables said:

UA is a great choice from the DC area because anywhere that UA doesn't get you, US will, and you still get miles.

UAL and US Airways are not well positioned in the Central time zone outside Chicago. UAL runs a hub sustem of LA, SF, Denver, Chicago, and Dulles. US Air runs Phoeniz, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Charlotte. To get to Dallas, Houston, New Orleans, or St. Louis out of DCA almost requires going AA or CO. Delta used to have a presence but they cut out their connecting cities betwen Cincinnati and Salt Lake.

(Apologies for the airline lingo.)

[Cambridge]

Feb 13, 2008 8:22:06 GMT -5 theexorcist said:

I fly a fair amount - mostly international (If you hate KC, Frankfurt is awful - it's like a military prison camp that was designed by Escher). Domestically, I've flown Northwest, United, and American. I flew Continental a few years ago. There's not a lot of difference between them - nobody has food, even on flights between Dulles and LA. I tend to think that United has slightly better planes than Northwest, whose seats always seem sort of rickety. United has a better in-flight magazine. Delta has better cookies. That's about it. There's no difference that I've seen between any of them. Even international is fine (United's Economy Plus is worth the price for the legroom, and is approximately the same as British Airways' service).

Short version - only price matters.

Continental does have a meal included (if you fly during a meal time).

[AustinHoya03]

Feb 13, 2008 12:45:00 GMT -5 hoyatables said:

Back on topic . . . I fly United. I've drank the kool-aid, and believe that FF loyalty just pay once you earn status. UA is a great choice from the DC area because anywhere that UA doesn't get you, US will, and you still get miles.

Yeah, I used to shop around for flights quite a bit, but my status got bumped up on American last year, and now I fly with them 9 out of 10 times. Now that Southwest's fares have crept up, American's fares are usually the cheapest for me anyway.

On United's Economy Plus -- don't be surprised if this is the first thing Continental axes. It's great if you've got elite FF status, but has minimal appeal to anyone who doesn't. And if you sit anywhere else in coach you pay a fare similar to that of other airlines with marginal seats/service. Nice perk for United's frequent flyers, but it causes the rest of us to avoid your airline.

[Cambridge]

Feb 13, 2008 14:17:45 GMT -5 AustinHoya03 said:

Feb 13, 2008 12:45:00 GMT -5 hoyatables said:

Back on topic . . . I fly United. I've drank the kool-aid, and believe that FF loyalty just pay once you earn status. UA is a great choice from the DC area because anywhere that UA doesn't get you, US will, and you still get miles.

Yeah, I used to shop around for flights quite a bit, but my status got bumped up on American last year, and now I fly with them 9 out of 10 times. Now that Southwest's fares have crept up, American's fares are usually the cheapest for me anyway.

On United's Economy Plus -- don't be surprised if this is the first thing Continental axes. It's great if you've got elite FF status, but has minimal appeal to anyone who doesn't. And if you sit anywhere else in coach you pay a fare similar to that of other airlines with marginal seats/service. Nice perk for United's frequent flyers, but it causes the rest of us to avoid your airline.

Continental already has the economy plus, they call them premium seats. The difference is that they are only available to elite FFs, not to be bought for higher market price or upgrade.

[AustinHoya03]

Feb 13, 2008 14:21:20 GMT -5 Cambridge said:

Continental already has the economy plus, they call them premium seats. The difference is that they are only available to elite FFs, not to be bought for higher market price or upgrade.

Didn't realize Continental had that program. Did a Google search and it looks like the program is slightly different than United's. There's no extra legroom on Continental's premium seats -- they're just seats at the front of the plane.

I can book the exit row in advance on American, so I end up with a better deal but without a fancy program name.

[The Stig]

United and Northwest both have pretty ratty cloth economy seats. United just announced that they're going to put leather seats in coach on all their planes, but that'll take a while. I've heard Northwest actually has very nice seats on their international flights, but I haven't flown them internationally in a long time. American holds the distinction of having the most uncomfortable airline seat I've ever sat in (DFW-Brazil and back). I haven't flown Delta recently enough to evaluate them. The last international carrier I flew was Air New Zealand, and their seats were far more comfortable than anything I've gotten on a US carrier (except for Midwest).

Last time I flew United I got a free upgrade to Economy Plus (I switched to an earlier flight at the gate), and it was lovely. On some international airlines (such as Air New Zealand) they have a completely different style of seat for premium economy, with higher service standards.

Generally price is the biggest factor I go by when I fly, but I consider other things too. Direct flights are always preferred, Midwest is always my first choice, I do anything I can to avoid connecting in O'Hare, National over Dulles, and tight connections are bad.

[kchoya]

Feb 12, 2008 14:29:04 GMT -5 AustinHoya03 said:

Feb 12, 2008 14:00:58 GMT -5 The Stig said:

US Airways has a double-whammy for bad airports - they also hub at Philadelphia, which is a notorious dump.

The worst airport for connecting is Kansas City (Midwest Airlines and Southwest route some flights through there). It was designed in the days before airport security, so every 2-3 gates has its own security checkpoint, with no connections between the sections. Almost every connection there involves going through security again There are also almost no concessions or restaurants after security (they only recently added bathrooms).

It's a shame, because Midwest is the best domestic airline in the US by quite a good margin.

And Charlotte is the other hub...it's cool because it has a mall in the airport! Never mind that whenever I've flown through there my flight is delayed. Despite the fact two of my relatives fly for US Airways, I must admit that it is tied with United for "common carrier I try to avoid most." If you fly anywhere on the east coast from Austin or San Antonio on US Airways, enjoy your first leg of the trip to Phoenix.

KCI really isn't that bad unless you're flying at peak time. You have to go through security again, but since there is a security station for every five gates you usually just walk right through.

I've never flown Midwest -- what's so special about them?

KCI is the best if your beginning or ending there. Nothing better that walking (maybe) 150 feet from the curb, through checkin, through security and to your gate. I've never had to connect through there, but I could see how it is lacking in amenities beyond the gates. However, unless you're flying out of C2C affectionately calls one of those podunk little mountain towns, you can't match the convenience. (There's nothing like when I was living in Bozeman and could leave for the airport an hour before the flight and breeze through security with time to spare).

Austin - Midwest, at least on most of it's planes, has [essentially] first class seating throughout with 2x2 seating, leather seats, food served on actual plates and fresh baked cookies.

[ExcitableBoy]

Feb 13, 2008 14:17:45 GMT -5 AustinHoya03 said:

Yeah, I used to shop around for flights quite a bit, but my status got bumped up on American last year, and now I fly with them 9 out of 10 times.



On United's Economy Plus -- don't be surprised if this is the first thing Continental axes. It's great if you've got elite FF status, but has minimal appeal to anyone who doesn't.

Your statement above is the whole reason for the FF programs, which are massive money makers. United has gained a LOT of favor with their Economy Plus section so I guess I am in the camp that would be surprised if it's the first thing to go.

[AustinHoya03]

Feb 13, 2008 15:54:55 GMT -5 ExcitableBoy said:

Your statement above is the whole reason for the FF programs, which are massive money makers. United has gained a LOT of favor with their Economy Plus section so I guess I am in the camp that would be surprised if it's the first thing to go.

Well, I assume it would be replaced by Continental's frequent flyer program or some similar FF program. I agree FF programs are great money-makers and they're great for customers if you fly enough. I'm certainly not suggesting United dump its FF program altogether. I just think they should re-arrange the seats.

The problem is that Economy Plus divides the cabin into "above average coach" and "below average coach." That extra leg room doesn't come from lengthening the plane -- it's cramped in the back.

So if I am not a member of any FF program, and I need a direct flight from DIA to Chicago, I am much more likely to fly Frontier or American, which offer direct flights with more leg room and (IMO) better service. Which means I'm more likely to join Frontier or American's FF program in the future.

So, unless people know about Economy Plus, and it's really easy to qualify for whatever FF status is necessary to be upgraded, there's little reason to start flying United in the first place. And if you're someone who buys an airline ticket once every couple years, there is very little reason to fly United at all.

[hoyatables]

I used Economy Plus even before I attained status. I would often either purchase the seat for $35 or hope that getting on the earlier flight got me a good seat. And Future Mrs. Tables got me Econ Plus access for the first full year we dated, in a (wise) effort to incentivize me to come visit her more often rather than vice versa. Now I get it for free because of status, and still love it!

[Coast2CoastHoya]

Feb 13, 2008 15:52:02 GMT -5 kchoya said:

However, unless you're flying out of [what] C2C affectionately calls one of those podunk little mountain towns,

Actually, I did mean it affectionately! I love those towns, their history, their charm, and these days they usually have a cool little brewpub or killer local grub (like the towns in NM). Oh, and I meant places like Cortez, CO, not SLC in case you were wondering.

[AustinHoya03]

Feb 13, 2008 18:20:16 GMT -5 hoyatables said:

I used Economy Plus even before I attained status. I would often either purchase the seat for $35 or hope that getting on the earlier flight got me a good seat. And Future Mrs. Tables got me Econ Plus access for the first full year we dated, in a (wise) effort to incentivize me to come visit her more often rather than vice versa. Now I get it for free because of status, and still love it!

Well that sounds ridiculously easy to upgrade. I may have to go back on some of my earlier criticism if the barriers are that low (there's some new criticism I can think of, but I'll restrain myself).

And...if it's just thirty-five bucks...now I may have to try Economy Plus next time I'm going to Chicago, just to see if it's all it's cracked up to be. You win this round, United Airlines.

[SFOHoya]

Feb 13, 2008 18:18:42 GMT -5 AustinHoya03 said:

The problem is that Economy Plus divides the cabin into "above average coach" and "below average coach." That extra leg room doesn't come from lengthening the plane -- it's cramped in the back.

FYI, UA's "below average cabin" has the same leg room offered in coach by AA, CO and every other airline (except JetBlue) - between 31 and 32 inches. That's what she said.

News activity on the DL/NW merger is picking up. Bloomberg reporting Delta CEO will forgo millions of dollars in compensation he'd be eligible for if the carrier merges. Reuters reporting that AirFrance/KLM will take a stake in the merged airline. AJC reporting that both pilot unions are reviewing the deal.

UA/CO, you're up to bat.

[vcjack]

Feb 13, 2008 14:44:11 GMT -5 AustinHoya03 said:

Feb 13, 2008 14:21:20 GMT -5 Cambridge said:

Continental already has the economy plus, they call them premium seats. The difference is that they are only available to elite FFs, not to be bought for higher market price or upgrade.

Didn't realize Continental had that program. Did a Google search and it looks like the program is slightly different than United's. There's no extra legroom on Continental's premium seats -- they're just seats at the front of the plane.

I can book the exit row in advance on American, so I end up with a better deal but without a fancy program name.

Exit rows on American = best flying strategy