TBird41
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Post by TBird41 on Sept 18, 2007 14:13:34 GMT -5
Here's a question--Barkley goes on and on about Andy Reid and McNabb not getting a "fair shake" from the fanbase. Said he didn't either. Could it be that Philly fans realize they won because of their defense and those 2 guys were holding them back from taking the next step? Could it be that what Rush Limbaugh really said--and was absolutely correct on--that Eagles won due to DEFENSE--not McNabb's play--was true? His statement about the NFL and Black QB's was wrong--his specific statement about McNabb and Eagles success was dead on. He also said that Favre needed to be a secondary player and not focal point in GB if they were to win--and that never got mentioned due to McNabb taking a statement and manipulating it for sympathy. He goes back to this excuse tonight on Bryant Gumbel's show--which is a joke. QB's get the credit/blame period. Joey Harrington is whiter then the Republican Convention and he takes more abuse then any QB in FB. Kyle Boller? Drew Bledsoe? Jake Plummer? Peyton Manning was putting up numbers that nobody has--and he caught it until last year-when he won on the field and silenced the critics. McNabb? He goes to this again. Fact is--McNabb went to broadcaster friendly Syracuse--and many of their alums made him bigger then he was due to his affiliation-the results of Philly were more due to Jim Johnson's defense then anything on offense. McNabb is a good QB--but he's not great. McNair--he's not bad because he's Black-he's bad. Boller is better then McNair and yet Boller takes more heat. Jason Campbell looks a lot better then Mark Brunell and last time I checked Skin fans wanted Brunell benched. Garrard is loved in Jacksonville-and he's black. Vince Young--loved in Tennessee. WINNING is what fans are loyal to and when they see you play for years and have nothing but one year where you made Super Bowl with guy on your team you said you didn't need--well they tend to get a bit judgemental. Facts are--McNabb opened his mouth about Terrell Owens-he said the team would be better without him--since then--what has happened? How have the Eagles fared? What is their record with McNabb starting and without him starting? Did their fans not see them win the NFC East and get to the 2nd Round with Jeff Garcia playing QB? If you truly are an elite player--does your team get better results without you? Are Eagles as good without TO as they were with him? NO--were they as good without McNabb? No--they were better. So that is why Eagle fans have TURNED on McNabb--they see the results and fans only care about results--there is no love affair and your only loyalty is to the team you support--not individuals. If McNabb had backed up his claims during the Owens stuff--he'd have them on his side--but fans saw the results--and have right to their opinion. Bryant Westbrook had a lot to do with the Eagles' success as well, and their change in focus to him rather than McNabb after McNabb's injury is why their offense looked better last year.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 18, 2007 14:19:45 GMT -5
Ok. I'm an Eagles fan. Two things.
First. MNF used to be designed for a generic audience, with the "bigger than the game" idea. The problem is that it's now on ESPN, but the mentality remains of appealing to a broader audience (people who are marginally interested in football and who watch it because it's an event).
Second. McNabb is a very good QB. He's not perfect. There have been very few QBs in the NFL better than him over his career.
"Could it be that Philly fans realize they won because of their defense and those 2 guys were holding them back from taking the next step?"
This is insane. Philly was AWFUL before Andy Reid, and has made the NFC East their personal stomping grounds for almost ten years. They made a SUPER BOWL, for crying out loud! The last time they did that was almost twenty years ago!
Finally. If you're not a Philly fan, you can't understand that there is a consistent expectation that awful things will happen. If you've ever had a friend that's had awful relationship after awful relationship to the point that he's turned numb, that's Philly. The media is attuned to this and enhances this.
And ever since Limbaugh made that comment, it's been another angle of failure - the race angle in addition to the star player/coach fissure angle (notable in the aftermath of last year's draft).
There's a Simpsons episode where Homer's beloved Isotopes are about to win the pennant and Homer shows up at Moe's in full regalia. Kent Brockman makes some comment about how Homer will root for them even if they lose - at which point Homer says "Those losers!" and begins to rip off his jersey before Kent warns him that the game isn't over.
That's the Philly mentality. Anything - a missed pass, a first down - causes fans to believe the worst.
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Sept 18, 2007 14:31:06 GMT -5
Ok. I'm an Eagles fan. Two things. Sorry about that. But, I'm a Giants fan, so you won't be hearing anything from me. That's the Philly mentality. Anything - a missed pass, a first down - causes fans to believe the worst. It's called conditional reflex (see e.g. Pavlov). Even non-human athletes have had a role in this response (see e.g. Smarty Jones) ;D
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 18, 2007 14:34:54 GMT -5
The Giants won two Super Bowls in the past twenty years! I went nuts when we made it to one!
ESPN showed a graphic indicating the last championship in the major sports for Philly. The most recent event was Villanova. If you're a Philly fan in your early thirties, you have no memories of a championship. This screws with people's psyches in a city that ties itself to its sports teams.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 18, 2007 15:25:33 GMT -5
Here's a question--Barkley goes on and on about Andy Reid and McNabb not getting a "fair shake" from the fanbase. Said he didn't either. Could it be that Philly fans realize they won because of their defense and those 2 guys were holding them back from taking the next step? Could it be that what Rush Limbaugh really said--and was absolutely correct on--that Eagles won due to DEFENSE--not McNabb's play--was true? His statement about the NFL and Black QB's was wrong--his specific statement about McNabb and Eagles success was dead on. He also said that Favre needed to be a secondary player and not focal point in GB if they were to win--and that never got mentioned due to McNabb taking a statement and manipulating it for sympathy. He goes back to this excuse tonight on Bryant Gumbel's show--which is a joke. QB's get the credit/blame period. Joey Harrington is whiter then the Republican Convention and he takes more abuse then any QB in FB. Kyle Boller? Drew Bledsoe? Jake Plummer? Peyton Manning was putting up numbers that nobody has--and he caught it until last year-when he won on the field and silenced the critics. McNabb? He goes to this again. Fact is--McNabb went to broadcaster friendly Syracuse--and many of their alums made him bigger then he was due to his affiliation-the results of Philly were more due to Jim Johnson's defense then anything on offense. McNabb is a good QB--but he's not great. McNair--he's not bad because he's Black-he's bad. Boller is better then McNair and yet Boller takes more heat. Jason Campbell looks a lot better then Mark Brunell and last time I checked Skin fans wanted Brunell benched. Garrard is loved in Jacksonville-and he's black. Vince Young--loved in Tennessee. WINNING is what fans are loyal to and when they see you play for years and have nothing but one year where you made Super Bowl with guy on your team you said you didn't need--well they tend to get a bit judgemental. Facts are--McNabb opened his mouth about Terrell Owens-he said the team would be better without him--since then--what has happened? How have the Eagles fared? What is their record with McNabb starting and without him starting? Did their fans not see them win the NFC East and get to the 2nd Round with Jeff Garcia playing QB? If you truly are an elite player--does your team get better results without you? Are Eagles as good without TO as they were with him? NO--were they as good without McNabb? No--they were better. So that is why Eagle fans have TURNED on McNabb--they see the results and fans only care about results--there is no love affair and your only loyalty is to the team you support--not individuals. If McNabb had backed up his claims during the Owens stuff--he'd have them on his side--but fans saw the results--and have right to their opinion. Bryant Westbrook had a lot to do with the Eagles' success as well, and their change in focus to him rather than McNabb after McNabb's injury is why their offense looked better last year. Which is why Reid catches crap and should. Andy Reid's best job of coaching is having Jim Johnson as his Defensive Coordinator. The Eagle fan below mentions "before Reid came...." well Reid walked into a situation where the Cowboys, Redskins, and Giants were terrible--so he was guaranteed at least 4/5 wins a year before season started. The man is labled an offensive coach--yet his offense sucks in big games. The Eagles contend/win with defense. McNabb is good--I don't deny that--but he's going to take heat like any QB does--they get too much credit and too much blame--but it's part of the position. Within the lockeroom--he's not the most popular for siding with management while other guys have had issues with them not paying players. The McNabb-TO thing was about issues that media is too lazy to discuss and it split the lockeroom up a bit. When McNabb came out with his statements--which he did NUMEROUS times and slurp job/no nothings like Mike Wilbon sided with him--you have to back it up. Wilbon is still in denial--but he knows nothing about sports--see his blame of Boller for the loss against Bengals--when it was Steve McNair's garbage play that cost them that game and Boller didn't do anything to lose that game. It's really simple-you claim you are a leader and team will be great without someone--back it up. He didn't. The Eagles are better when they run more and give Westbrook the ball more--but Reid falls in love with passing game, and McNabb has marginal receivers. What McNabb should've said is "we don't need TO--but we need some better WR's to contend". Instead-he suffers and Reid is too stubborn, and the Eagles have taken a step back. Thing is--crying about race and being judged harsh because you are a "Black QB" isn't going to win you sympathy and fans--especially after you have been proven wrong on the field in terms of results--whether it's his fault or not--the results are all that matter and the Eagles won without him--and with him--they've been mediocre. Do I think McNabb is better then Garcia? Of course. Do I think he's a great leader? No, he's too sensitive and leaders are guys who don't care what people say--they are too busy focusing on important things--like winning games.
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hoopsmccan
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Post by hoopsmccan on Sept 18, 2007 16:32:45 GMT -5
[quote author=tbird41 board=pro thread=1189115601 post=1190142814
Bryant Westbrook had a lot to do with the Eagles' success as well, and their change in focus to him rather than McNabb after McNabb's injury is why their offense looked better last year. [/quote]
I was wondering if this would have any carryover to this season, but so far it hasn't from what I've seen. Thought maybe Andy would realize that Westbrook is the best offensive player they have and making him a focal point (like they did when Garcia was the QB) would pay dividends. Nope - back to throwing 60 times a game.
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theexorcist
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Post by theexorcist on Sept 18, 2007 16:47:12 GMT -5
Reid has been a coach since 1999. Excepting his first year, he has had one losing season in seven years, which isn't bad for the NFL punishing mediocrity. Their worst winning record was last year, when they went 10-6. This team hasn't barely hit 9-7 a few times.
They made four conference championships and won one. They won the NFC East five times. Their losses during that time came when they scored 24 on the Greatest Show on Turf, lost to the Bucs and a great defense. They laid one goose egg against the Panthers. During the Super Bowl, they scored three TDs. They lost to the Saints when they scored 24. What else do you want? And don't pull out "the rest of the NFC East wasn't any good" line. The Giants made the Super Bowl early on. Washington made the playoffs a few times, as did the Cowboys.
I really don't get the "Reid's a bad coach". And since McNabb has basically been with the Eagles since McNabb, I can't see the logic here. The defense is very good, and is consistently what you think of when you think of Philly, but the defense has never been the sole purpose of this team like it was with the Ravens. The defense has historically been very good, the QB has historically been very good, the coach has historically been very good.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 18, 2007 17:02:21 GMT -5
Reid has been a coach since 1999. Excepting his first year, he has had one losing season in seven years, which isn't bad for the NFL punishing mediocrity. Their worst winning record was last year, when they went 10-6. This team hasn't barely hit 9-7 a few times. They made four conference championships and won one. They won the NFC East five times. Their losses during that time came when they scored 24 on the Greatest Show on Turf, lost to the Bucs and a great defense. They laid one goose egg against the Panthers. During the Super Bowl, they scored three TDs. They lost to the Saints when they scored 24. What else do you want? And don't pull out "the rest of the NFC East wasn't any good" line. The Giants made the Super Bowl early on. Washington made the playoffs a few times, as did the Cowboys. I really don't get the "Reid's a bad coach". And since McNabb has basically been with the Eagles since McNabb, I can't see the logic here. The defense is very good, and is consistently what you think of when you think of Philly, but the defense has never been the sole purpose of this team like it was with the Ravens. The defense has historically been very good, the QB has historically been very good, the coach has historically been very good. You lost me in trying to defend the NFC East during Andy Reid's tenure. Everything you said went out the window with that lone statement. The NFC EAST HAS BEEN TRASH SINCE REID HAS COACHED. Dallas has sucked. Washington has sucked, and Giants have been mediocre--and that's being kind. Only people in the East would think that Philly accomplished much by winning that division during majority of Reid's tenure.
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JimmyHoya
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Post by JimmyHoya on Sept 18, 2007 17:19:51 GMT -5
The *entire NFC has pretty much sucked since Reid became coach.
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FewFAC
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Post by FewFAC on Sept 19, 2007 10:20:42 GMT -5
A couple of things:
Yes I cringe every time Kornheiser opens his mouth.
The other thing on McNabb. First of all, to say he is a reason Philly hasn't advanced is pretty retarded. Nevermind that he has never had a quality wide receiver, and when he did, in TO, he made it to the Super Bowl.
The Eagles have been pretty flawed for a long time, and part of that is game strategy by Reid and execution by McNabb, but both the strategy and the execution are a direct function of the lack of personnel the Eagles have had for a long time. Honestly, for that team to have been as good as it has been for as long as it has is nothing short of a miracle. And Reid and McNabb deserve some of the credit for that.
As to whether black QBs get judged "differently," I'm willing to bet that in Philly, they probably are. Barkley certainly had his memories (though I cringe most every time I hear Barkley too), and I'd bet Iverson has a bunch he can share too ("Practice? We're talking about practice?").
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Sept 19, 2007 12:28:05 GMT -5
Yeah, the audacity of those Jets for trying to catch a cheater in the act of cheating them. The league sure didn't like it. ESPN is reporting that Belichick was fined $500,000 and the Pats $250,000, The Pats will also lose a draft pick (first rounder if they make the playoffs, which is obviously pretty likely; but they still have another first-rounder, apparently). Belichick's an ass. He should have been suspended. No different from when Denver broke the cap rules (during the Elway 97 & 98 SB years), when the Niners broke the cap rules (back in the Young years), when Pittsburgh systematically used steroids as a team (during the 70s) and when Shanahan admitted to using binoculars regularly to spy on the other teams signals . A first round pick is punishment enough and sends a signal. And if you believe the Pats were the only ones doing this, I have a bridge I want to sell you...
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Sept 19, 2007 12:57:30 GMT -5
Yeah, the audacity of those Jets for trying to catch a cheater in the act of cheating them. The league sure didn't like it. ESPN is reporting that Belichick was fined $500,000 and the Pats $250,000, The Pats will also lose a draft pick (first rounder if they make the playoffs, which is obviously pretty likely; but they still have another first-rounder, apparently). Belichick's an ass. He should have been suspended. No different from when Denver broke the cap rules (during the Elway 97 & 98 SB years), when the Niners broke the cap rules (back in the Young years), when Pittsburgh systematically used steroids as a team (during the 70s) and when Shanahan admitted to using binoculars regularly to spy on the other teams signals . A first round pick is punishment enough and sends a signal. And if you believe the Pats were the only ones doing this, I have a bridge I want to sell you...Is it a Cam-bridge?
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Boz
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Post by Boz on Sept 19, 2007 13:12:13 GMT -5
"A pun does not commonly justify a blow in return. But if a blow were given for such cause, and death ensued, the jury would be judges both of the facts and of the pun, and might, if the latter were of an aggravated character, return a verdict of justifiable homicide." - Oliver Wendell Holmes
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Filo
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Post by Filo on Sept 19, 2007 13:21:25 GMT -5
No different from when Denver broke the cap rules (during the Elway 97 & 98 SB years), when the Niners broke the cap rules (back in the Young years), when Pittsburgh systematically used steroids as a team (during the 70s) and when Shanahan admitted to using binoculars regularly to spy on the other teams signals . Sure it's different - he got caught in the act. Of course other teams are doing it. But they didn't get caught. I think what bugs me about it is Bellichick's arrogance. And his stupidity -- first, he got caught; second, if his team is that good, why even bother? The Pats can crush the Jets on an even playing field, so why resort to cheating? [That's rhetotical]
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Sept 19, 2007 15:51:43 GMT -5
They got caught because Mangina was so embarassed after the waxing he took at the hands of his mentor, after relishing the slobjob he got all offseason, that he blew the whistle on his former employer out of spite. Not many situations in the NFL that are similar that would have allowed for similar results.
Former assistant coach, now head coach of a division rival, already knows the opponents signals, spiteful enough to blow the whistle due to previous bad blood.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Sept 19, 2007 15:53:40 GMT -5
No different from when Denver broke the cap rules (during the Elway 97 & 98 SB years), when the Niners broke the cap rules (back in the Young years), when Pittsburgh systematically used steroids as a team (during the 70s) and when Shanahan admitted to using binoculars regularly to spy on the other teams signals . Sure it's different - he got caught in the act. Of course other teams are doing it. But they didn't get caught. I think what bugs me about it is Bellichick's arrogance. And his stupidity -- first, he got caught; second, if his team is that good, why even bother? The Pats can crush the Jets on an even playing field, so why resort to cheating? [That's rhetotical] As for the point about arrogance, I agree. There is no doubt that this proves that Bellichick will stop at nothing to absolutely demolish his opponents. It's just like how the Pats went for it on 4 and 1 on the Bolts 5 yard line with four minutes to go in the fourth quarter of a blowout. That is cold blooded, most teams kick a fieldgoal.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 19, 2007 16:34:41 GMT -5
It's all starting to come out in regards to McNabb and how his teammates don't like how he's treated. Apparently he walked out of today's Press Conference after being bombarded with questions about his comments on "black QB treatment"-which he had to know would draw attention. What I like least about McNabb is how sensitive he is--he's a female dog to be honest. Any sign of criticism--he can't take it. If you do anything--there is going to be some who love you, some who think you suck--but especially in a field where you are a celebrity--why does he focus on negative things? Why does he worry about people who don't matter? Fans don't decide if he plays or not--his coaches and teammates are the only people he needs to please and perform for-yet he lets things bother him--and has his mom saying crap like she did last year when team won without him--which is just ignorant.
It's coming out that teammates feel McNabb gets seperate treatment and coaches don't treat him same and avoid criticizing him because he can't handle it--that team has had issues with him and will--to the point I expect him to be a Bear by this time next year.
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vcjack
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Post by vcjack on Sept 19, 2007 17:51:59 GMT -5
Seems like Donovan needs a milkshake...
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 19, 2007 22:57:57 GMT -5
Seems like Donovan needs a milkshake... Nah, just some chunky soup from his mommy and if you give him a Milkshake--better make sure that bleepin' thing is CHOCOLATE! (now that's just a joke people-don't go McNabb on me)
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Sept 20, 2007 14:33:13 GMT -5
Vince Young and Jason Campbell came out today and had a difference of opinion from Donovan.
Basically Vince said "If you can't take criticism--maybe the QB position isn't for you".
Campbell said he doesn't feel what McNabb says to be true--and believes criticism "comes with the position--get too much credit/blame, just part of the position".
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