DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 31, 2007 19:58:00 GMT -5
The real question is what is Orlando thinking? What's the success rate of college to pro transitions the past ten years? 10%? Less? Orlando is awaiting a vote on a new arena to repalce what is now called the Amway Arena (Really). Hiring a coach of significant popularity in the state won't hurt to get out the vote. Donovan gets $5-6 million a year, and is assured of a waiting audience of college AD's should he decide to come back. Unlike Mike Montgomery, who disappeared of sorts after leaving Stanford, Donovan would be a Rick Pitino-sized hire if the NBA didn't work out.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on May 31, 2007 23:42:17 GMT -5
People in Florida view basketball as a nice activity to hold them over until Football, Recruiting, Spring Football, Involuntary Workouts, Two a Days, and then football.
I think Donovan is a big name--but I think people in Florida could care less if he coached the Magic--I think they'd rather have him stay at UF--but that is just my perspective and maybe they'll prove me wrong and really support the Magic.
Donovan leaving Florida when he did makes at least some sense-not like they can complain about him and he's better suited for the NBA then Pitino due to the fact he's actually developed and coached frontcourt players and while Pitino is a great College coach--I think Donovan is a better coach overall--in terms of his style carrying over to NBA--he can coach different styles of teams and succeed--which he's proven.
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Jun 1, 2007 8:11:02 GMT -5
Andy Katz on Mike&Mike this morning (6/1) cited the two top prospects for the next Florida coach as Anthony Grant and Jay Wright.
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HoyaFanNY
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Post by HoyaFanNY on Jun 1, 2007 10:06:41 GMT -5
grant is a lock.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jun 1, 2007 11:27:16 GMT -5
I think Anthony Grant is going to be at the top of a short list for sure. He's a great guy and a quality individual. Ironically, had the timing been different, then John Pelphrey may very well have been the first choice.
RDF, as to that angle I am uncertain how much that played into it. Colin Cowherd in his pompous way, said this morning that he heard 2 weeks ago from a really good source that Billy D. was close to a deal with the magic and more importantly that he was irritated that Florida remained a "football school" even after 2 national titles. Colin mentioned that Florida drew 4 times as many people for the spring game as they did for the Championship celebration. Well, that is true, but that doesn't tell the whole story. The Orange and Blue game is a big event and is scheduled a year or more in advance. Secondly it is held at the Swamp which seats over 90,000 people. The Championship celebration was thrown together in four days and started at 6:30 pm on a Friday night at the O'Dome which seats about 12,000. Furthermore, they opened the doors at 5pm and they closed them when it was full and didn't allow anymore people in. I got off work at 6pm and went straight over there with my son and got there by 6:10 and it was full. They wouldn't even let people in as people came out. The backup plan was to show it via closed circuit across the street at the football stadium, which is what my son and I did. There were several thousand more people there as well, but it isn't the same as being there "live." The point in all this is that I don't think there was any type of lack of support for the celebration at all. Personally, I think Colin was just trying to blow his own horn.
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HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Jun 1, 2007 11:38:12 GMT -5
The real question is what is Orlando thinking? What's the success rate of college to pro transitions the past ten years? 10%? Less? •Billy Donovan, Florida Orlando Magic, 2007-, ? •Mike Montgomery, Stanford Golden State, 2004-06, 68-96 •Leonard Hamilton, Miami Washington, 2000-01, 19-63 •Lon Kruger, Florida Atlanta, 2000-03, 69-122 •Tim Floyd, Iowa State Chicago, 1999-2001, 49-190 •Rick Pitino, Kentucky Boston, 1997-2001, 102-146 •John Calipari, UMass New Jersey, 1996-99, 72-114 That's an ugly list but past isn't necessarily prologue. Also, even if Donovan fails (many possible definitions), can he really be faulted for accepting an offer for $27.5 million over 5 years? I realize UF would have gone to $3 mill or so but, really, can he be faulted for opting for more money? I don't think so. Further, if the guys falls on his face over the next three years in O-town, he pockets $16.5 million (nearly twice the $9 mill he would have earned at UF over the same period) and, as has been mentioned previously in this thread, would have his choice of open high-major programs. Finally, maybe this makes you-know-who go away.
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Post by NoCleverName on Jun 1, 2007 11:50:03 GMT -5
One distinguishing factor after a quick look at the list is that Donovan is actually inheriting a decent team. Most college coaches moving to the pros find themselves with bad rosters and/or poorly run franchises. The Magic were a playoff team this past season.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jun 1, 2007 11:59:46 GMT -5
One distinguishing factor after a quick look at the list is that Donovan is actually inheriting a decent team. Most college coaches moving to the pros find themselves with bad rosters and/or poorly run franchises. The Magic were a playoff team this past season. Good point and there is even more to it. Billy D. mentioned being very familiar with Dwight Howard as having recruited him a couple of years back. He said the same thing of the Dooling kid and lastly, with Billy's experience as a point guard both in college and the NBA, the opinion seems to be that Jameer Nelson can blossom under Billy's coaching. Billy also mentioned specifically many pieces of the puzzle already being in place and then the potential to add the needed pieces of the puzzle via both the free agency market as well as the upcoming NBA draft. One thing I don't expect Billy to do is overload his team with former Gators like Spurrier did, although it wouldn't surprise me to see him take a good look at Humphrey and Richards as role players and even Taurean Green in the draft. None of the other 3 big names will be around unless they move up and I seriously doubt that he would push for that move as essentially his first action as the coach. We will have to see on that one.
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Post by ExcitableBoy on Jun 1, 2007 12:05:08 GMT -5
RDF, as to that angle I am uncertain how much that played into it. Colin Cowherd in his pompous way, said this morning that he heard 2 weeks ago from a really good source that Billy D. was close to a deal with the magic and more importantly that he was irritated that Florida remained a "football school" even after 2 national titles. Colin mentioned that Florida drew 4 times as many people for the spring game as they did for the Championship celebration. Well, that is true, but that doesn't tell the whole story. The Orange and Blue game is a big event and is scheduled a year or more in advance. Secondly it is held at the Swamp which seats over 90,000 people. The Championship celebration was thrown together in four days and started at 6:30 pm on a Friday night at the O'Dome which seats about 12,000. Furthermore, they opened the doors at 5pm and they closed them when it was full and didn't allow anymore people in. I got off work at 6pm and went straight over there with my son and got there by 6:10 and it was full. They wouldn't even let people in as people came out. The backup plan was to show it via closed circuit across the street at the football stadium, which is what my son and I did. There were several thousand more people there as well, but it isn't the same as being there "live." The point in all this is that I don't think there was any type of lack of support for the celebration at all. Personally, I think Colin was just trying to blow his own horn. If you need to defend the fact that 4 times more people showed up for an intersquad practice than showed up (by whatever definition) for a basketball national championship celebration, you are a football school.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jun 1, 2007 12:27:19 GMT -5
RDF, as to that angle I am uncertain how much that played into it. Colin Cowherd in his pompous way, said this morning that he heard 2 weeks ago from a really good source that Billy D. was close to a deal with the magic and more importantly that he was irritated that Florida remained a "football school" even after 2 national titles. Colin mentioned that Florida drew 4 times as many people for the spring game as they did for the Championship celebration. Well, that is true, but that doesn't tell the whole story. The Orange and Blue game is a big event and is scheduled a year or more in advance. Secondly it is held at the Swamp which seats over 90,000 people. The Championship celebration was thrown together in four days and started at 6:30 pm on a Friday night at the O'Dome which seats about 12,000. Furthermore, they opened the doors at 5pm and they closed them when it was full and didn't allow anymore people in. I got off work at 6pm and went straight over there with my son and got there by 6:10 and it was full. They wouldn't even let people in as people came out. The backup plan was to show it via closed circuit across the street at the football stadium, which is what my son and I did. There were several thousand more people there as well, but it isn't the same as being there "live." The point in all this is that I don't think there was any type of lack of support for the celebration at all. Personally, I think Colin was just trying to blow his own horn. If you need to defend the fact that 4 times more people showed up for an intersquad practice than showed up (by whatever definition) for a basketball national championship celebration, you are a football school. I will meet you halfway on that one. There is no doubt that Florida is a football school. But I don't think there is any mandate that a football school can't be a basketball school as well. The attendance comment didn't come across as I intended. It seemed like I was trying to explain why there wasn't enough support for the celebration. There was. It was packed. They were turning people away at the door. Like I said, we got there at 6:10 but from what I heard it was about 5:40 or 5:45 when the O'Dome was officially full. Then in addition to the 12,000 plus in the O'Dome there were several thousand more at the Swamp across the street. Another factor this doesn't reflect is that the event was carried live on SunSports, so I am positive there were a lot of people who ventured to any of a number of bars between 1 and 3 blocks away to watch. If you couldn't be inside the building then I am sure that many people would rather sit with food and beverage in their hands rather than on a bleacher outside. In any case, my point is that I don't think Billy had any disgust at all with the support the program has received the past several years. He raised the bar for sure, and as far as the game environment, the O'Dome is consistently rated as one of the toughest places to play and has been for the past several years. Also, Billy didn't mention anything of the sort and in fact said that he was entirely happy at Florida. He said that the easy thing to do would be to stay at Florida. He was happy. His family was happy. His four kids were very entrenched in the community. For what it's worth, he said that he had to look at it as what was the best choice for him to grow personally and that was to move to the next level and yet another challenge. I really do think everything fell into place for him. He didn't take the Kentucky job when he could have had it. He didn't take the Memphis Grizzlies job when he could have had it. But I think the proximity of Orlando played a huge role in the decision. I think his family stays put. I think Billy will get a place in Orlando as well of course, but I bet Billy does a lot of flying back and forth from Orlando to G'ville.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jun 1, 2007 12:32:20 GMT -5
Sorry about missing on Werner. He must really have been parked on the bench last year.
Not all college coaches are doomed to failure (Chuck Daly and Jack Ramsay come to mind, as does Dick Motta), but it's a steep hill. The briefest tenure from a college coach in the NBA was not Dick Vitale, by the way, but the very, very brief run of Jerry Tarkanian (9-11 with the Spurs)
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HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Jun 1, 2007 12:43:18 GMT -5
Disagree. You're either a football school or a basketball school -- cannot be both. Florida, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Michigan, Penn State, Texas -- all football schools. Doesn't really matter if they win NC's in bball (UF), make FF's (UF, tOSU, UM) or have marquis bball talent (all), football is simply on another level.
I can respect your support for basketball but spring game attendance, statewide coverage of signing day, interest in high school football, revenue, marketing, licensing, TV coverage, newspaper coverage, on and on...UF and other schools are and always will be football schools. Football first.
It's just different at shools like Georgetown, Duke, Indiana.
UF is a football school.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jun 1, 2007 13:05:02 GMT -5
Disagree. You're either a football school or a basketball school -- cannot be both. Florida, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Michigan, Penn State, Texas -- all football schools. Doesn't really matter if they win NC's in bball (UF), make FF's (UF, tOSU, UM) or have marquis bball talent (all), football is simply on another level. I can respect your support for basketball but spring game attendance, statewide coverage of signing day, interest in high school football, revenue, marketing, licensing, TV coverage, newspaper coverage, on and on...UF and other schools are and always will be football schools. Football first. It's just different at shools like Georgetown, Duke, Indiana. UF is a football school. I understand your sentiment, but I think you are basically putting the cart before the horse. IF any of those schools (G'town, Duke or Indiana) became consistently successful at football, then I would fully expect the students, alumni and community to get behind the football program. Does that then all of a sudden make them a football school? I will give the Hoyas a bit of a break given their size and makeup. But take Indiana for example. They are a basketball school because they have been successful in basketball and have a lot of tradition in basketball. The same would be true of Kentucky. Now, if somehow either Indiana or Kentucky were to get a Spurrier or Saban for example. And over 4 or 5 years, were to become a football power. I know that is highly unlikely, but should that happen, then I would expect the students, alumni and community to fully back their championship football team. The only difference is that we did that same thing in reverse. The key to me really gets down to consistency and that is what Billy has brought to Florida and what our new coach can hopefully continue. Obviously winning back to back titles is highly unlikely for anyone, but Billy brought us consistently competitive levels. I don't have the exact number in front of me, but we made it to something like 9 or 10 straight NCAA appearances and 9 or 10 straight 20 win seasons, and to 3 Final Four appearances in 7 years. That is a consistency befitting a basketball program. That is all I am saying. I guess my main point is that there is no rule that says that if you care about one thing you can't care about the other. Now I will tell you that I am continually Editeded off by the lack of support for our baseball program. In fairness, we have been somewhat inconsistent -- making it to Super-Regionals in '03 and '04 and Omaha in 98 and 05 but not even making regionals the past two seasons. Still the truth remains that success breeds support. No one prefers to support a loser and nothing fills the stands like winning, and most specifically winning championships. The bottom line is that at this point in time we are a basketball school but at least in my opinion we haven't established enough of a tradition to get a free pass as one, like Indiana and Kentucky have for example. I was actually hoping that Billy would stick around another dozen years. If he had done that and taken us to another ten or twelve dances and say 2 or 3 more Final Fours and maybe another Title, then I think we would BE a basketball school along the lines of Indiana, Kentucky, UCLA or Duke. But alas, it wasn't to be. I don't think the sky is falling though. If Grant can come in he may very well be able to continue to build on the foundation that Billy has given us and we can still achieve that status. We just have a little bit more difficult of a road to travel.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jun 1, 2007 13:13:48 GMT -5
Sorry about missing on Werner. He must really have been parked on the bench last year. Not all college coaches are doomed to failure (Chuck Daly and Jack Ramsay come to mind, as does Dick Motta), but it's a steep hill. The briefest tenure from a college coach in the NBA was not Dick Vitale, by the way, but the very, very brief run of Jerry Tarkanian (9-11 with the Spurs) Yeah, it was kind of funny about Warner. He was supposed to be this light it up shooter but whether it was nerves or what I don't know. In any case he shot very poorly and by the middle of the year just simply didn't shoot at all. The oddity is that almost all of my friends also thought he a severe defensive liability but the coaches were always praising his defensive efforts. It was so extreme that we were likening him in a sense to Joakim Noah -- not in his style of play or anything, but in that Noah was clumsy and out of place in his freshman season, but when the coaches were asked in the offseason about who would make a big jump the next year they responded "Noah." I remember us joking about that skinny dorky guy, but damned if the coaches weren't right. He blossomed in his sophomore year, so we were hopeful that Werner could show similar improvement. As for successful NBA coaches who came from college you failed to mention probably the most succesful one -- Larry Brown.
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HealyHoya
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Post by HealyHoya on Jun 1, 2007 13:47:21 GMT -5
Still not there....if GU, Duke, et al suddenly sported competitive high-major football teams, then, of course, students, fans, etc. would support it. But support (which I'll do for GU sailing, crew, baseball, basketball, football, US News academic rankings, beer-pong...) is different than being a football school or basketball school. We're a baketball-first school and ain't no changin' that -- it really doesn't matter what the football team does.
Kentucky will always be a basketball school -- basketball first. Same with Indiana. Same with Duke.
It's not about whether a school and/or its fans can support multiple programs -- that's a given. It's about which sport comes first. That sport, in my mind, is that school's sport.
You've had unprecedented success in basketball at UF over the past 5 years. Back-toback NC's, for God's sake! Football is still more popular -- and by a longshot. It's not even close. I'm not trying to short-change you support for Donovan, the players, and so forth but even after back-to-back NC's UF athletics is STILL defined by football on a national level. Sure, maybe that's because you won the NC there, too. Kudos. Nevertheless, UF is football first.
Take tOSU. Great young coach, FF run, losing talent to the draft but bringing in great class. Top of Big Ten bball. They're still football first by a mile.
UF has a great basketball program, no doubt. UF is a football school.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jun 1, 2007 14:07:36 GMT -5
I wouldn't really argue with the substance of what you said. But I don't think that is exactly the same as saying that you can't be a basketball school and a football school. Maybe it is just a matter of semantics however. When I say a "basketball school," what I mean is a consistently competitive program on the National level. In your mind, I guess you are using the term "basketball school" or "football school" to refer to what you think of first or at least historically first. That is self difining itself as only one or the other. Again I wouldn't dispute your argument there, but that is a different question. That is essentially the same as telling someone that you must choose one or the other, which will it be? Football attendence is 90,000 plus while basketball is 12,500 or so. But they are both FULL! The town is alive for both football and basketball games. Now granted a lot more fans travel to road football games, but I think that is a factor of the sport not the support. Tons more people attend Jet and Giant games than Knicks games. The Cowboys average attendence dwarfs the Mavericks. etc... But when I say a "basketball school" I mean one that supports its program. And we do that. Now hopefully we can continue that relatively recent trend.
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RDF
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Post by RDF on Jun 1, 2007 14:16:41 GMT -5
Larry Brown started out in ABA I believe--might have been a player/coach--and he's just a basketball nomad-so he doesn't really count as a "Pro/College" guy--he's just a guy who likes to "teach". As for my comments on UF being a football state--it wasn't directed at Florida--it's just in general--the sport of FB is far more important--and I'd think that most basketball fans would prefer Billy stay at UF instead of coaching the Magic--it's why I don't think even with his name/success-can make a difference in them getting a new arena. You can have successful programs at the same time--Ohio State, UF, Texas, etc...but each of those schools will always be football schools in football states. They will always produce talented kids due to size of their states and that alone produces talent enough to compete--but when you think of UCLA--you think Basketball, when you think of USC--you think FB-- it's just how some places are perceived no matter what. I just prefer to see guys stay where they are successful--but some want a new challenge or financial security--and Billy has done more then enough to take a risk--but be careful what you wish for--because you don't deal with unselfish people in Pro Sports--you are dealing with mini-corporations who have agendas--and you just hope part of their agenda is winning. College is about name on front of jersey and Pro is about the back of jersey--and it's why I prefer College sports and like to see excellent college coaches stay in college.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jun 1, 2007 14:44:43 GMT -5
Larry Brown started out in ABA I believe--might have been a player/coach--and he's just a basketball nomad-so he doesn't really count as a "Pro/College" guy--he's just a guy who likes to "teach". As for my comments on UF being a football state--it wasn't directed at Florida--it's just in general--the sport of FB is far more important--and I'd think that most basketball fans would prefer Billy stay at UF instead of coaching the Magic--it's why I don't think even with his name/success-can make a difference in them getting a new arena. You can have successful programs at the same time--Ohio State, UF, Texas, etc...but each of those schools will always be football schools in football states. They will always produce talented kids due to size of their states and that alone produces talent enough to compete--but when you think of UCLA--you think Basketball, when you think of USC--you think FB-- it's just how some places are perceived no matter what. I just prefer to see guys stay where they are successful--but some want a new challenge or financial security--and Billy has done more then enough to take a risk--but be careful what you wish for--because you don't deal with unselfish people in Pro Sports--you are dealing with mini-corporations who have agendas--and you just hope part of their agenda is winning. College is about name on front of jersey and Pro is about the back of jersey--and it's why I prefer College sports and like to see excellent college coaches stay in college. See how much sense you make when you aren't venting some random complaint? I pretty much agree with what you said here. You know, almost everytime something like this happens, the departing coach says, "it isn't about the money." Well, on one hand I can certainly say that I would be totally content with $1.7 million a year. But when someone offers $5.5 million, there is no way any of us can say that we wouldn't at least consider it, and in fact most of us would be somewhat dishonest to even suggest that we probably wouldn't take the money. But I really do get the sense that things just really fell into place. Billy D. hasn't minced any words in stating that he has always been intrigued by the NBA. But he also hasn't minced any words in saying that he wanted his family to have a stable environment and that the kids were at an age where he wanted them to grow up in a stable community. When you add to all of this the fact that the roster was essentially an entirely new group of guys and that Orlando of all places came calling, I think he decided reluctantly to make the move.
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hifigator
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Post by hifigator on Jun 1, 2007 14:45:39 GMT -5
Incidentally, I'm not sure which came first, but I am pretty sure that Larry Brown coached at both Kansas and UCLA for a while.
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bubbrubbhoya
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Post by bubbrubbhoya on Jun 1, 2007 19:36:13 GMT -5
Is this the end of the hifigator era as well? Puh-lease let that be the case!
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