USA vs. Italy

[Deleted]

hoyasincebirth said:

UGGH today was terrible. 1. i'm been sick all day witha fever. 2nd. the czechs lost and they didn't look good at all. There was some pretty crappy refering in that game too. Frankly that game was the one that scared me the most. The USA game was really good in the begining but the crappy refering ruined the game. I'm satisfied with the draw but they really needed to win. They had so many oppertunites. The USA looked a lot better today though.

This leads to an intresting situation. For me i'm kinda screwed agian cause it looks like only one of the US or czech republic will advance. It works like this.

Czechs advance in first place w/
a win over Italy and a loss by ghana
A win over italy and a tie btween US and ghana

Czech's advance in 2nd w/
a tie in both games
a win over italy but a ghana win of more than 2 goals more than what czechs win by

US cannot qualify in first place.
US advances in 2ndw/
a win over Ghana and a loss by the czechs
a tie btw Czechs and italy and a win by the US in whcih they out score ghana by 5.
a win by the czechs and a win in which they score enough that they have a higher goal differential than the italians. e.g czechs win by 2 US needs to win by 4.

So in other words realistacally for the US to advance the czechs need to loose or score like 5 goals on italy. so i'm kinda stuck btw a rock and a hard place.

HSB -

I think I speak for everyone when I say:

"Pick a side, punk."



A game like today's goes a long way to killing any momentum the sport may have been gaining in the U.S. Fans on the fence are going to look at the game and see (1) diving beyond belief, (2) officiating that looked like Vince McMahon feeding instructions to Earl Hebner, and (3) a U.S. team that still can't score a goal on their own. Not the best way to sell the product.

[CAHoya07]

buffalohoya said:

A game like today's goes a long way to killing any momentum the sport may have been gaining in the U.S. Fans on the fence are going to look at the game and see (1) diving beyond belief, (2) officiating that looked like Vince McMahon feeding instructions to Earl Hebner, and (3) a U.S. team that still can't score a goal on their own. Not the best way to sell the product.

I don't know, I thought it was a well-played and very entertaining game to watch. (1) Well, I guess diving's just part of the game. (2) True, but Americans deal with poor officiating in pretty much every sport we follow. Just a fact of life. Hopefully there's a FIFA investigation into this one, though. (3) True, but we still have one more game to prove ourselves. A win against Ghana would go a long ways, especially if we end up advancing.

[Deleted]

cahoya07 said:

I don't know, I thought it was a well-played and very entertaining game to watch. (1) Well, I guess diving's just part of the game. (2) True, but Americans deal with poor officiating in pretty much every sport we follow. Just a fact of life. Hopefully there's a FIFA investigation into this one, though. (3) True, but we still have one more game to prove ourselves. A win against Ghana would go a long ways, especially if we end up advancing.

Oh, I thought it was very entertaining as well, CA. But this was billed as the "win-or-go-home" game (correctly or not) by ABC and ESPN. Casual fans who don't know much about the game don't understand much more that, and the fact the U.S. "couldn't win again" (let alone score) does not bode well for the game.

Not sure a mere good showing against Ghana will do much to change the business-as-usual view of Team USA/soccer in America. They need to advance.

[FLHoya]

cahoya07 said:

US-Italy was the first World Cup game that I've been able to watch in its entirety, and despite the aforementioned referee bull, it was extremely entertaining from start to finish.

I personally can't get by the "aforementioned referee bull" though. This game to me was a complete farce, and the last 43 minutes were utterly worthless. There's nothing entertaining in my book about a game where the referee is the single most important player. You know what would have been entertaining? Anything but a 10 v. 9 game.

The impact of the official goes beyond making a game 11 v. 10, 10 v. 10, and then 10 v. 9. The first red card basically forced Marcelo Lippi's hand in the first half (ML is the Italian coach). Subbing Totti for Gattuso was clearly about going defensive down a man. If they only knew...and in the second half Lippi had to reverse himself when he took out a defender (Zaccardo--you're opening goal scorer for the USA in WC 2006!!) in favor of Alessandro del Piero after Italy went up a man. Well there went two of Italy's subs. On the US side, boy did Bobby Convey look good in the first half. Would've been nice to keep him around instead of subbing for a much-needed extra defender to replace Eddie Pope.

What annoys me the most about the officiating was a complete lack of control over the game. I think a good way to illustrate this is what happened to me the first time I was the center ref for a travel soccer game.

I was a tad nervous to draw the assignment and all, and as a result I swallowed my whistle too much in the first half, and wasn't getting into the best position to make calls. As a result, the play got a bit chippy. I wasn't being formally assessed that game, but at halftime my advisor had a conversation with me about how I was letting the game get away from me. I responded in the second half by calling a foul for basically every minor thing I saw. Which, essentially, made the game a joke. The coaches were angry, the players were confused...because I had "lost control" of the game in the first half (so I thought/was told) and responded by putting it in a vice grip and ruining any semblance of flow to the game.

What I was told after the game--and it's the right advice--is you have to establish the terms of the game very early on...more importantly, as an official you have to communicate these to the players so everyone is on the same page. Throwing out cards aplenty is NOT the best way to do this (barring extreme circumstances). What you should do, I've learned, is establish a clear and consistent precedent for how you're officiating a game. Communicate with the players--if one is being reckless, warn them. If they question a call or want an explanation, tell them.

Not once did I see Larrionda doing that during the game. He had a darn good opportunity to do it with Onyewu in the first 20 minutes--he was fouling left and right. Nothing serious necessarily, but he was getting into persistent infringement territory. Sending a message by communicating to Gooch to tone it down benefits all the players. Instead, the chippiness early on was let go...and one could reasonably claim (and I think Marceo Balboa did) that De Rossi's elbow/red card was probably a lash out in frustration at physical play not punished.

So, in a way, even in getting a red card infraction correct, the official was still guilty of not controlling the game. That red card started a sequence of him over-correcting for his early leniency (as I had in the second half of my first travel game as a center ref) that only ended about 10-15 minutes after Pope's second yellow card. The hot speculation about Mastroeni's red card (my opinion: clearly a reckless and dangerous challenge, but I agree with those who say it could have gone yellow just as easily as red) was that it was a "makeup" for Italy's red card. I would posit that it's equally likely it was another of Larrionda's attempts, having "lost control" of the match by not settling down the action and talking to players early on, to "regain control" of the match. Except now instead of setting a precedent with a back and forth with players and good officiating, he was setting precedent with a rectangular piece of red plastic. By the end of the game, he'd fallen back into the "anything goes" pattern...although maybe he was just sick of all the diving at that point (you'd think in a game with three red cards you'd get ONE caution for a dive...nope.)

On a side note, seeing slow-mo replays of the foul Pope got his second yellow card for made me extremely angry. I don't know what that was.

So in the end, Italy's subbing for defense and then subbing for offense, the US is forced into an exclusively counter-attack and hope offense...and in the end we get about 3-4 legitimate chances in the last 40 minutes of action, and about 10 offsides violations (although jeebus the assistant referee was crap too, I'd be mad at 2-3 calls if I were Italian).

But on a positive note, a much better performance by the USA all around (well, except Eddie)...some great work from Convey in the first half, Dempsey was a real surprise and showed a lot today, Beasley found his brain, Donovan found his heart, Cherundolo showed a lot of courage, and it was pretty much all made irrelevant except in the "talk show/sit and hope for Thursday" circuit b/c of the wicked witch of CONMEBOL officials...irregularities?? Seriously, there's not a better ref in Uruguay? The rest of CONMEBOL? They couldn't just haul Collina or Frisk out of the old referees home?

On a negative note, I now know the feeling of celebrating a goal that turns out not to count. Absolutely nothing McBride could have done, it was the right call but just supremely unlucky that he happened to be standing there of all the places on the field, directly in the path of the shot (*honestly, in my heart, I'm pretty sure if he isn't standing there Buffon probably doesnt get handcuffed and saves the shot).

Now...Ghana and the Czech Republic--THAT was a game! End to end futbol, tons of skill, not an especially large amount of defense being played by the Czechs, save the goalkeeper Cech who turned in the performance of the tournament at his position...goal difference issues would be, uh, relevant for the USA on Thursday if not for him.

[FLHoya]

You know what, maybe I'm being too harsh. A total farce is probably a bad way to put it. It was, in truth, a rather heroic performance in defense by the US over the final 40 minutes. Especially after the listless Czech Republic outing, this was night and day, and deserved the ovation the team got at the venue I was watching at.

I think this guy from the Independent (not the GTown one!) says it best:

After a series of World Cup group games designed to satisfy the aesthetes and purists, this was car-crash football at it most fascinating, a contest of three dismissals, countless yellow cards, and controversy, which leaves the group beautifully poised, the USA still dreaming, and the Azzurri wondering how victory eluded them.

sport.independent.co.uk/football/internationals/article1090220.ece

Something for everyone in this thread to appreciate from the game, I guess.

[TBird41]

Thats what you get for trying to be on both bandwagons HSB. You can't root for 2 teams at once--you gotta pick a favorite.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

I already posted that I'm supporting hte Czechs first and foremost. I want the czechs to advance in first place andd if the US needs to loose or will not be able to advance as a result so be it doens't mean i can't wish that that wasn't the situation. It's hardly bandwagoning seeing as i've followed both teams for years. the past couple of world cups the czechs have not made it out of the difficult qualifying in Europe loosing in the playoffs both times. So i rooted for the US cause they're my other team there's nothing wrong with picking a team and rooting for it when you team isn't in the field. And since obviosuly i have every reason to root for the US since i live here. I don't understnad why i can't hope for the best for both teams up until the point where one's success causes the other failure at that point you go with a side. in this case the side i go with is the czechs but it doesn't mean i stop liking the US.

[CAHoya07]

I support you, HSB. The Czechs can be your favorite, but at the same time, don't stop supporting the US. I imagine Thursday morning will be very interesting and nerve-wracking for all of us but especially you, with those two games happening at the same time.

[RockawayHoya]

One of the more underrated moments of yesterday's game: after the third Italian player who needed to be stretchered off ran back onto the field within a minute (just like the other two), when the US kicked the ball out of bounds intentionally to give the ball back to Italy, we deliberately kicked it at the guys who brought out the stretcher, as if to say "don't bring that out again for these fake ass P.O.S's." The sarcastic cheers from the US after that one had me chuckling, I must admit.

[Nevada Hoya]

Comments. What the heck is a make up call? Make up for what - for the Italian nailing McBride? That definitely had to be the worst call of the match. The tackle may have been a bit late, but not red card late. The Americans have not scored yet in the World Cup this year. They will have to overcome that against Ghana. As they have shown, Ghana is a dangerous team, capable of very good soccer.

Also, since my heritage is Polish and Italian, I am rooting for Italy against TCR and Poland (unfortunately they are not going anywhere this year), but mainly the USA.

[SoCal Hoya85]

I am completely upset with that pansy delicate flower crybaby Italian national team. They couldn't find masculinity if Chuck Norris roundhouse kicked it in their face.

The diving is completely unforgivable and doesn't represent your country well at all, not to mention when someone truly gets hurt they don't get the benefit of the doubt from the fans. Can you imagine someone like Wade or Iverson who routinely play through injuries and pain, playing with those guys and watching the Italians getting carried off the field sprayed and running back in the game?

I was very proud as an American that the only time an American player went down and went off the field there was blood involved. Diving is cheating plain and simple, and even if it is part of the game- well it shouldn't be. Pansies.

[HoyaSinceBirth]

The Italians are the worst in the world when it comes to diving. I can understand trying to sell the foul but not just completely pretending to get hit like the italians often do. THe refs were supposed to be cracking down on diving this world cup but the ref in the USA ITaly game fell for all of their dives it was terrible. If the ref feels like the player has made an obvious dive they're supposed to issue a yellow card cause diving does take away from the game. I understand the motivation for diving it has many benifts: wastes time, provides free kicks, gives players a rest. But the italians do this way too much. They're excessive diving is unacceptable.

[AustinHoya03]

hoyasincebirth said:

The Italians are the worst in the world when it comes to diving.

For my money, nobody can beat the 1998 Croatia team in terms of diving. Those divers dove their way into the semifinals. Anyone else have a nominee?