Isiah Thomas - worst sports executive ever?

[Hank Scorpio]

is he? i don't even think there is a debate here.

[Deleted]

Failed as a league commish? Check.

Failed as a head coach? Check.

Failed as a team president? Check.

Failed as a GM? The jury is technically still out, but I think we can lean towards... check.

What else is there? Ball boy? Equipment manager? Guy who grabs the sweats off the court as the players check into the game?

[Hank Scorpio]

i am an islanders fan...and this is way worse than mike milbury. i mean, 100 times worse. my head is going to explode just thinking about this. under his regime, the knicks have acquired:

- Marbury [max deal]
- Jamal Crawford [max deal]
- Eddy Curry [max deal]
- Jalen Rose [max deal?]
- Quentin Richardson [grossly overpaid]
- Penny Hardaway [grossly overpaid]
- Maurice Taylor [grossly overpaid]

they have the highest payroll in a league with a salary cap, and do not have a single player who i consider to be in the top 20 in the NBA. possibly not even top 30. it's astounding.

[RBHoya]

Don't put that all on Zeke though. He inherited a horrible situation too. He inherited a team that had scrubs like Keith Van Horn, Howard Eisely, Clarence Weatherspoon, Shandon Anderson, all of whom were horribly overpaid. Not to mention Allen Houston, who was a nice player but by far the worst maximum contract player in the league. Also, while I'm on the topic of max contracts, I didn't think that either Marbury or Crawford had max deals. Marbury might, but Crawford I was pretty sure didn't.

I mean, when Thomas got the team, their cap situation was horrendous. Some might argue that he's made it worse, but at least among the sea of huge contracts now there are some developing young players--Frye who's probably the 2nd or 3rd best rookie in the league, Nasty Nate Robinson, David Lee, Trevor Ariza (would be a college junior), and Eddy Curry (would be a rookie if he went to college 4 years). Not to mention players who are still relatively young like Crawford, Q Richardson, Qyntel Woods, Jackie Butler (would be, like, a college sophomore I think) and even Marbury himself.

The fact is that there was no quick solution to fix the Knicks when Isiah took over. If they wanted to get out of salary cap misery, they would have had to just sit and wait for 4-5 years for those contracts to expire, because you can be damn sure nobody else wanted any of those bums. But they didn't bring Isiah in to watch the clock while contracts expired, they brought him in to try to shake things up, and he has. He made a bold move to try to get a franchise player in Marbury. It hasn't worked out great, but at the same time, I wouldn't really say it failed.

The only way they'll ever get a really good team is by slowly letting the old guys expire while stockpiling young talent and picks along the way. They tried to be the Yankees and win by outspending everyone, and it just doesn't work in the NBA with the cap, and the organization is going to have to pay a few years worth of pennance for that. But at least Zeke knows this and is brining in capable young guys to develop, so that when all of the bad contracts expire in 3 years or so, we've got a solid nucleus of guys in their mid to late 20s who are ready to put something together. Thomas has made some boneheaded moves along the way (Jerome James definitely the most egregious) but I still think most of the blame has to go to Layden, Checkets, and Dolan who made brilliant moves like:

-signing Allen Houston to a max contract when he was bidding against essentially NOBODY

-drafting Fred Weiss over Ron Artest and others signing a marginal and terribly undersized PF for the full mid-level exception (Weatherspoon)

- trading Glen Rice for Shandon Anderson, Howard Eisely, and another scrub or two

- trading Latrell Spreewell for Keith Van Horn

- trading the 8th pick in the draft and Marcus Camby for Antonio McDyess

and a number of other completely retarded moves.

[RockawayHoya]

Rumor has it Penny is going to Portland for Theo Ratliff and Ruben Patterson. The misery doesn't end for us Knick fans yet, folks.

The day the Knicks fell into oblivion is the day they fired Ernie Grunfeld. Most. Stupid. Move. Ever.

[Cambridge]

borat2 said:

i am an islanders fan...and this is way worse than mike milbury. i mean, 100 times worse. my head is going to explode just thinking about this. under his regime, the knicks have acquired:

- Marbury [max deal]
- Jamal Crawford [max deal]
- Eddy Curry [max deal]
- Jalen Rose [max deal?]
- Quentin Richardson [grossly overpaid]
- Penny Hardaway [grossly overpaid]
- Maurice Taylor [grossly overpaid]

they have the highest payroll in a league with a salary cap, and do not have a single player who i consider to be in the top 20 in the NBA. possibly not even top 30. it's astounding.

I went to high school with Mike's daughter Allison Milbury. Smoking. Hot. Sigh. That is all I have to say on this subject.

[the_way]

No, Isiah isn't the worst in the NBA. He replaced somebody he was one of the worst: Scott Layden. Also, Danny Ainge is worse. Look what that trade of Banks, Davis, Blount, did for the Celtics. They are getting clobbered now. Billy King for the Sixers is worse.


Isiah is bad, don't get me wrong, but the situation was messed up to begin with. He is trying. He got that kid Frye and Nate Robinson. But, yes he is doing a bad job, but the Knicks were in bad shape before he got there, money-wise. Isiah is not fit to be a GM. He is one of the greatest players ever, but his GM/Coaching jobs that he has done are just plain horrible.

[RockawayHoya]

Agree with you way, that the only thing Isiah has done correctly since he's come aboard is draft (Frye, Robinson, Lee, Ariza). But his personnel moves involving trades and free agent acquisitions have been nothing but detrimental to the team, and have set this team back at least a few years. I just pray he has enough sense to let the remaining bad contracts run their course. I believe it was maybe John Hollinger who guessed that maybe Isiah was trying to eek out another first round pick next year for Rose (when he gets to the last year of his contract), but if he doesn't get that done when the time comes, he essentially picked up an additional year of a worthless max contract in exchange for a mid teens-early 20s pick. Not a great decision.

[Deleted]

Isaiah is a player and a player only. Every other basketball related venture he's undertaken has failed miserably. The Knicks job is just the latest in a long line (running CBA, running Raptors, coaching Pacers) of misery.

He should stick to kissing Magic.

Also, its arguable he's nearing Layden/King levels of ineptitude. At least Ainge - who I can't stand and think has ruined the Celtics - has been to the playoffs.

[Boz]

Not that it is a bastion of accurate insight, but the (Feb. 7) Daily Quickie agrees with the assessment of Isiah as worst executive ever.

sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/quickie

[the_way]

buffalohoya said:

Isaiah is a player and a player only. Every other basketball related venture he's undertaken has failed miserably. The Knicks job is just the latest in a long line (running CBA, running Raptors, coaching Pacers) of misery.

He should stick to kissing Magic.

Also, its arguable he's nearing Layden/King levels of ineptitude. At least Ainge - who I can't stand and think has ruined the Celtics - has been to the playoffs.

Ainge's team made the playoffs when:

1. He was trying to make them bad into a lottery pick, and the team said forget that and the made it int the playoffs anyway. You know you are bad when you are tyring to win as a GM and your team loses. But you are more horrible as a GM when you are tryin to lose and your team wins.


2. The Celtics made the playoffs again when they traded again for the player Ainge never wanted to begin with: Antoine Walker.


Plus, Ainge follows this form of neurological testing when he evaluates players. Davis scrored high on that test so that is why Ainge kept him and loved him. Now he trades him, Blount, and Banks for *gulp* Wally Szcerbiak, a guy who basically plays the same position as Paul Pierce.

Ainge is horrible.

[Deleted]

I agreed with you, _way. Ainge sucks. I said so in my post, if you'd read it.

But he's made the playoffs, bottom line. Thomas hasn't. Its all about winning in the pros, and he hasn't done it at any level other than as player. The guy should retire now. He's been an utter failure at every turn.

[RBHoya]

The team Ainge took over wasn't full of scrubs and way, way, way over the salary cap. The team Isiah took over was.

For the record, I don't think you'll see them rebuild under Isiah. They are going to be forced to suck for a number of years--what they need to do is suck and let the contracts expire... But they never really do, they're afraid to do that.... because as some other Knick fans have said, you can't rebuild in New York. People will stop coming. There are too many other entertainment options, and Knicks tickets cost an arm and a leg. It's more exciting to stand in Times Square than it is to watch a bad Knicks team.

But they put themselves into this mess, and now they're going to have to find their way out. The guy who I fault, isn't Isiah, though, it's the owner, Dolan. It's his mindset that is holding the team back. You CAN'T outspend people in the NBA! It will never work with the salary cap. Mark Cuban and Paul Allen learned their lessons, but Dolan continues to try to keep spending and win games without rebuilding. He brought in Isiah to do that, and Isiah is just doing what he can with those guidelines. They didn't bring Isiah in to watch over the team for 5 years while all the bad deals expire. Nobody in the Knicks organization--especially the ownership--has that kind of patience.

Also, in Isiah's defense... did you REALLY expect the CBA to succeed in any capacity?

[Deleted]

Are we sure Dolan is saying to Isaiah, "Spend, spend, spend?" I haven't heard anything about that.

Isaiah is in charge of talent evaluation and player acquisitions. Any way you cut it, he's failed miserably at that job. I'm not sure about the worst ever, but he's horrible and should've been fired already. Like I said, outside of being a PG, the guy has failed in every basketball/business venture he's ever undertaken.

[the_way]

buffalohoya said:

Are we sure Dolan is saying to Isaiah, "Spend, spend, spend?" I haven't heard anything about that.

Isaiah is in charge of talent evaluation and player acquisitions. Any way you cut it, he's failed miserably at that job. I'm not sure about the worst ever, but he's horrible and should've been fired already. Like I said, outside of being a PG, the guy has failed in every basketball/business venture he's ever undertaken.

Yes. What RBHoya is saying about Dolan and you can't rebuild in New York is the absolute truth.

Yes Isiah is bad. But it isn't ALL Isiah's fault. He is excerbating a problem that already existed and will continue to exist as long as ownership maintains their philosophy.

But Isiah did make it to the playoffs as Indiana head coach. He got fired because his poor coaching couldn't get them past the 1st round.

[Deleted]

Did I ever say it was all Thomas' fault, _way? No I didn't. Again, read the post.

All I ever said was he's an utter failure. Which is undeniable. If the Knicks were any sort of well run organization (yes, Cablevision deserves part of the blame), he'd be gone ASAP. The guy is just way in over his head and has no clue how to build a winner.

[the_way]

buffalohoya said:

Did I ever say it was all Thomas' fault, _way? No I didn't. Again, read the post.

All I ever said was he's an utter failure. Which is undeniable. If the Knicks were any sort of well run organization (yes, Cablevision deserves part of the blame), he'd be gone ASAP. The guy is just way in over his head and has no clue how to build a winner.

Buff, I'm agreeing with you and I'm just answering the question you asked RBHoya. I just made the point that Isiah coached Indiana's team to the playoffs. lol!! Thats all,man. ;D

[Deleted]

I understand how it works in NYC, _way. I live and breathe, man. I was merely questioning whether Dolan has made a Steinbrenner-like statement that Isaiah has to spend, spend, spend. To my knowledge, he has never made such a statement.

Granted, he has to win, win, win. Every GM does. Isaiah's failure to do so should lead to his dismissal if the Knicks had their act together. He just doesn't have the basketball knowledge to build a winner.

[RBHoya]

I've made enough points in my other posts that I'm too lazy to make another long one... All I'll say is this:

Given the situation Isiah was put in when he took the job, both ownership pressure and the team/cap situation he inherited... Nobody could have succeeded. Period.

[Deleted]

rbhoya said:

I've made enough points in my other posts that I'm too lazy to make another long one... All I'll say is this:

Given the situation Isiah was put in when he took the job, both ownership pressure and the team/cap situation he inherited... Nobody could have succeeded. Period.

Well... agree to disagree.