dikembe
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Post by dikembe on Dec 10, 2004 20:00:51 GMT -5
As a member of Redsox Nation I am now weeping openly. Someone hold me. *emotional*
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 14, 2004 12:20:43 GMT -5
cool story Hansel.
Is the Derek Lowe face coming back to Boston? or is a rotation of Wakefield, Wells, and Arroyo going to keep the Sox in the race til May with Schilling on the DL and Pedro in Flushing?
Viva Steinbrenner
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Bahstin
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Post by Bahstin on Dec 14, 2004 16:14:59 GMT -5
...still smiling
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 15, 2004 1:58:42 GMT -5
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 16, 2004 10:17:46 GMT -5
Well I certainly know what's going in a few yankee fans' stockings this Christmas...much better than coal. ;D
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 16, 2004 19:12:35 GMT -5
Do you mean Randy Johnson? He is certainly better than coal. Well I certainly know what's going in a few yankee fans' stockings this Christmas...much better than coal. ;D
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 17, 2004 0:36:17 GMT -5
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 8:24:32 GMT -5
made my post before any of the news broke about the trade last night... but i agree, this is far from a done deal as it stands. that said, he'll end up in NY one way or the other. there were 3 way deals with the White Sox and Cardinals discussed, too. those'll be revisited. RJ vs Wells to open the season at Yankee Stadium...unless Schilling can get his ankle healed. wouldn't that be something?
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Dec 17, 2004 8:59:05 GMT -5
RJ vs Wells to open the season at Yankee Stadium...unless Schilling can get his ankle healed. wouldn't that be something? Absolutely. It is also fun to see the Yanks in the position of near-panic acquisition of players - with luxury tax, the 2005 payroll is going to hit the high 200s. The pressure to win the World Series (nothing less will do) with all-stars at every position will be enormous.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 10:54:32 GMT -5
i don't see this as near panic... i think Cashman's offseason plan has been very sound, aside from the Lieber fiasco. He has made his rotation better and hasn't overpaid for anyone...Pavano signed for market value and Wright's contract is heavy on incentives - if he has a total of 60 days on the DL in his first 2 seasons his 3rd year is only 3 million. Vazquez is going to be very good, but, one, i don't know if it'll happen in new york, and two, Pavano replaces him as the young gun in the rotation. If you can acquire Randy Johnson, who should have won the Cy Young last year, you do it. Vazquez has 3 more years left on his deal. RJ has 2 left on his. Would you rather have 2 years of RJ or 3 years of Javy, knowing what you know about each pitcher at this point? To me, it's a no brainer. And a rotation of: RJ Moose Pavano Wright Kevin Brown/El Duque looks pretty good to me. i agree the payroll is silly, but Steinbrenner bought the team for 10 million bucks and it's worth close to a billion now - he's playing with house money. Absolutely. It is also fun to see the Yanks in the position of near-panic acquisition of players - with luxury tax, the 2005 payroll is going to hit the high 200s. The pressure to win the World Series (nothing less will do) with all-stars at every position will be enormous.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 12:30:12 GMT -5
Hahaha, not in panic mode...ouch, it stings that bad that you can't even joke. Seriously, you know this is panic. Honestly, what won you all those championships -- pitching and defense. Let's look at your infield vs ours...hmmmm...can Georgey Porgey do any more damage to your infield. Honestly. Outside of A-Fraud, all are average at best fielders, some not even.
As for pitching...
Randy Johnson..let's see, I'll missing watching him bat. But it will be fun to have Randy vs. Schilling. Man. Talk about showdown. Hahaha. I kinda hope you snag him, just for the comedy of watching Lurch play in the AL East. I mean, Randy is better than Schilling, however he's not exactly a club house presense. He's more of a haunting. Sure, he's gonna win you games...but he ain't making friends. Not sure how he'll handle the NY media, especially with his recent injury history and less-than-personable nature.
Pavano is this year's Estabust Looseriza...enough said
I can't believe you have faith in any rotation that features Moose as the two spot - is there a more inconsistant, shaky "ace." All of his starts, start off really well, but as a Sox fan you know the wheels are coming off the bus around the 5th inning. Trust me, that's saying a lot for Sox fans. If we have confidence in one thing, it's that the Moose will get sloppy and loose concentration. Hell, he even gets a Derek Lowe face when he makes mid-game mistakes. I'm always surprised Yankee fans have such confidence in him, by comparison, when DLowe was in that slot for us I had heartattacks every 5 days. How are you avoiding them? Where do I get this medication?
Kevin Brown...couldn't ship him out eh? Wonder why? Oh that's right....
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 13:08:06 GMT -5
i don't see our infield defense as a problem. For all the smack talked about Jeter as a SS, he's solid up the middle. A-rod is gold glove caliber at 3b. Womack is servicable at 2nd, and we will probably sport Tino at 1B. Given that the Sox will probably start Kevin Millar at first and have Manny Ramirez playing left field...i don't see where the defense talk is coming from. you're right...it comes down to pitching and defense. and we've bolstered our staff quite well. that you just dissed mike mussina makes me question what you were watching this past October. vs minnesota - 7 innings, 2 runs, lost a 2-0 game vs Boston, game 1 Do you remember him throwing 6 perfect innings against the Sox in game 1? I know I do. He was charged with 4 runs, but 2 of them were charged to him when Tanyon Strutze him let up a HR on the first pitch after inheriting a 2 on, 2 out situation. He left the game after 6 and 2/3 with an 8 to 2 lead. vs Boston, game 5 6 innings, 2ER, no decision, and he got SQUEEZED in the first inning by the homeplate ump, badly. So back up your Mussina hate... same guy came in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS and had a first and third, no one out situation...and got out of it no runs allowed. also retired 26 in a row vs the Sox in 2001 before Carl Everett snapped his perfect game in Fenway. do you even watch baseball? seriously. i haven't seen one desperate move by the Yanks all offseason. the Red Sox just signed a 300 pound left with back problems to a 2 year, 18 million dollar deal, and you think the Yankees are desperate? Get real. if Boston could deal, say, a younger Derek Lowe (circa 20 win season) and Hanley Ramirez for Randy Johnson, they'd jump all over it. The Yankees are giving up roughly equal value, probably getting a better deal considering the season Javy just had. And that wouldn't be desperate, that would be Theo being a genius in every Sox fans eyes. by the way, did you just criticize RJ as a clubhouse presence? Like Curt Schilling is popular in the Sox clubhouse?! Pretty sweet calling out Scott Williamson back in June, everyone loves Curt Schilling's personality. He's there to win games. Not make friends. Pavano is this year's Estabust Looseriza...enough said I can't believe you have faith in any rotation that features Moose as the two spot - is there a more inconsistant, shaky "ace." All of his starts, start off really well, but as a Sox fan you know the wheels are coming off the bus around the 5th inning. Trust me, that's saying a lot for Sox fans. If we have confidence in one thing, it's that the Moose will get sloppy and loose concentration. Hell, he even gets a Derek Lowe face when he makes mid-game mistakes. I'm always surprised Yankee fans have such confidence in him, by comparison, when DLowe was in that slot for us I had heartattacks every 5 days. How are you avoiding them? Where do I get this medication? Kevin Brown...couldn't ship him out eh? Wonder why? Oh that's right....
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 13:48:17 GMT -5
I compared Moose to DLowe...as grounds for my argument against...see my notes regarding DLowe and compare with his historic post-season-- I believe it was DLowe who clenched three straight series...hmmm that's the second straight postseason he's been clutch--- doesn't mean that I didn't fear him. I see him and Moose as similarly inconsistant, but capable of making incredible starts...but they never blow anyone away.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 14:15:49 GMT -5
And I'm calling you crazy for putting Mussina in the same category as Derek Lowe. He had a horrible start to the season this year, other than that, he has been a horse for the Yankees for the past 4 years and is widely regarded as one of the best pitchers in baseball. Has Derek Lowe even been a starter for 4 years? Derek Lowe vs Contreras and you might have had an argument. But I don't think there's any team in the league that wouldn't love to have Moose as their #2. He was our #1 last year and we came within 3 outs of sweeping the Sox... I compared Moose to DLowe...as grounds for my argument against...see my notes regarding DLowe and compare with his historic post-season-- I believe it was DLowe who clenched three straight series...hmmm that's the second straight postseason he's been clutch--- doesn't mean that I didn't fear him. I see him and Moose as similarly inconsistant, but capable of making incredible starts...but they never blow anyone away.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 14:22:47 GMT -5
Hmmm, always the best attack..."do you even watch baseball?" That's my favorite.
Seriously Borat, read my comments. You point out the good. Which I didn't deny, I merely questioned consistency. There's a big difference. I also, based my entire argument on how Red Sox nation viewed Moose and whether they feared him.
Perhaps, up in New York, you are unfamiliar with that fear and pessimism that can sink into your gut before a game -- where you know, for example Pedro's giving up 7, DLowe will be out by the second, Clemens will strike out 14, etc. My point was that, as Sox fans we don't fear Mussina because in the 5 or 6th inning of every start, yes even his solid starts in the playoffs, he begins to get sloppy. Sure, a lot of times he's getting squeezed, but mainly his pitch count skyrockets as he starts to tire. Just saying that of all the aces the yanks have had over the years, Moose inspires the least fear due to the sense that we will always have a shot at him around the 6th inning.
I equated it to how Yanks must feel when DLowe is starting for us. Sure he could come out and get a decisive win, but there's a sense of doubt.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 14:24:28 GMT -5
Again DLowe was runner up for a Cy Young...only two season's ago.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 15:26:11 GMT -5
you either 1) don't watch baseball and have no idea what you are talking about or 2) have an unfounded sense of confidence in mike mussina's penchant for breaking down against the Sox. I am going with the latter only b/c we have discussed baseball in the past. On with the stats! Moose vs the Sox as a Yankee: 2001: 6 starts, 3 and 3, 52Ks, 5BBs, 42Ip, 2.14 ERA, 2CG, 1SO, WHIP = 0.79 2002: 6 starts, 4 and 2, 35K, 10BBs, 43IP, 3.12ERA. 1CG, 1SO WHIP = 0.97 2003: 3 starts, no decisions, 19Ks, 7BBs, 23.2IP, 3.04ERA WHIP = 0.85 2004: 3 starts, 1 and 1, 16Ks, 9BBs, 18IP, 3.50 ERA, WHIP = 1.50 i outlined his playoff performances vs the Sox in a different post. i think he got shelled in one game in the 2003 ALCS, just for fair disclosure. you may think you have a shot against him after the 6th...but that's why bullpens exist. i'd rather take my chances with Moose for 6 and maybe he gets tagged for 1 or 2 before he gets the hook than Derek Lowe any day of the week. Derek Lowe's ERA vs the Yankees the past 4 seasons: 2001 - 8.59 2002 - 2.42 2003 - 5.55 2004 - 9.28 his WHIP has never been below 1 vs the Yanks, and in the bookend years it was well above 2. So, again, I am calling you crazy for equating Mike Mussina and Derek Lowe, especially in regards to the rivalry that exists between the Yankees and Red Sox. Moose has been consistently good, sometimes brilliant vs the Sox. You're either misguided or ignorant to this facts, and i hope the numbers i just provided convince you otherwise. questions? comments? DanMcQ do all Sox fans think Mussina is as unreliable as Cambridge here? Bueller? Anyone? Bueller? Hmmm, always the best attack..."do you even watch baseball?" That's my favorite. Seriously Borat, read my comments. You point out the good. Which I didn't deny, I merely questioned consistency. There's a big difference. I also, based my entire argument on how Red Sox nation viewed Moose and whether they feared him. Perhaps, up in New York, you are unfamiliar with that fear and pessimism that can sink into your gut before a game -- where you know, for example Pedro's giving up 7, DLowe will be out by the second, Clemens will strike out 14, etc. My point was that, as Sox fans we don't fear Mussina because in the 5 or 6th inning of every start, yes even his solid starts in the playoffs, he begins to get sloppy. Sure, a lot of times he's getting squeezed, but mainly his pitch count skyrockets as he starts to tire. Just saying that of all the aces the yanks have had over the years, Moose inspires the least fear due to the sense that we will always have a shot at him around the 6th inning. I equated it to how Yanks must feel when DLowe is starting for us. Sure he could come out and get a decisive win, but there's a sense of doubt.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 15:48:51 GMT -5
Over 4 years 18 starts: 8 wins, 6 losses and 4 NDs.
Of course those wins are front loaded during the years he was the third starter behind the Rocket and Petite...
When he's the Ace or the second banana over the last two years, he's put up...6 starts: 1 win, 1 loss and 4NDs
As I said before and I'll say again, I like my chances and always will.
Obviously this is just one example, but I remember the game on my birthday really well:
10/12 Boston @ NY: He started the game well. Held us scoreless. Outpitched Schill who got tagged for 6 runs at the beginning of the game. However, with the game at 8-0, the seventh inning rolled around...dun dun dun. Two outs down, then Bellhorn and Oritz get on, only to be doubled home by Millar on a ball that was left up. Then Trot smacks a single into center right. Then Tek crushes a 2 run homer. All of a sudden, in the span of 5 batters it's 5-8. Mussina is pulled. Sure, Bernie went on to finish us with a deep double...but that's a good example of how quickly the wheels come of a Mussina start.
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Hank Scorpio
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Post by Hank Scorpio on Dec 17, 2004 16:08:55 GMT -5
frontloaded? are you serious? they all faced the same lineup. when he was almost perfect he started against David Cone...who matched him by throwing 7 shutout innings. did the sox batters not battle as hard b/c he was their #3? or b/c wells was their #4? they must have only brought their A games for Pettitte and Clemens.
Mussina has gotten nothing as far as run support goes over the years...if he did he'd have won 25 games in 2001. all you need to know about a pitcher is look at his ERA and his WHIP. Mussina has been very good against the Sox in both. He's been very good against the league in both. You want to talk about consitency, I laid it out for you - ERA below a 3.50 and WHIP below 1 in 3 of 4 years vs the Red Sox. The numbers speak for themselves. You can be in denial, and that's fine. You're wrong.
You bring up Game 1 of the ALCS...he was perfect through 19 batters!!! Torre stuck with him to preserve the bullpen. And the HR to Varitek was allowed by Sturtze, not Mussina. He left the game with a runner on first and 2 outs, having allowed 3 runs. So you can cite that one example as your "classic Mussina meltdown" if you'd like, but I need some examples before you can call it a trend. Lay it out for me...
[quote author=CambridgeHoya link=board=pro&thread=1102726851&start=17#1 date=1103316531]Over 4 years 18 starts: 8 wins, 6 losses and 4 NDs.
Of course those wins are front loaded during the years he was the third starter behind the Rocket and Petite...
When he's the Ace or the second banana over the last two years, he's put up...6 starts: 1 win, 1 loss and 4NDs
As I said before and I'll say again, I like my chances and always will.
Obviously this is just one example, but I remember the game on my birthday really well:
10/12 Boston @ NY: He started the game well. Held us scoreless. Outpitched Schill who got tagged for 6 runs at the beginning of the game. However, with the game at 8-0, the seventh inning rolled around...dun dun dun. Two outs down, then Bellhorn and Oritz get on, only to be doubled home by Millar on a ball that was left up. Then Trot smacks a single into center right. Then Tek crushes a 2 run homer. All of a sudden, in the span of 5 batters it's 5-8. Mussina is pulled. Sure, Bernie went on to finish us with a deep double...but that's a good example of how quickly the wheels come of a Mussina start.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Dec 17, 2004 16:45:43 GMT -5
But this is my question...did you feel nervous with Torre's decision going into the 7th?
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