Bonds, Giambi & the Death of Baseball...

[Cambridge]

Now as a lifelong sox fan it pains me to watch this all unfold...but it seems like baseball has to come down real, real hard on all of this. Time to set up some rules and clean house. The only way to deal with this issue is head on.

With that in mind, it troubles me to see so many writers trumpeting Bond's pre-90s achievements as legit enough to get him into the Hall. Well, I think you may have to be more draconian. If Pete Rose, arguably the greatest hitter to play the game, can be barred from the sport and the Hall how can Barry Bonds not recieve the same fate.

Pete Rose is banished due to his practice of gambling on baseball while serving as a major league MANAGER which, in the eyes of the league and most people irreperably tarnished the game's integrity. While there is evidence, none of it is more airtight than the evidence against Bonds. Therefore, shouldn't baseball take as hard a stance against Bonds & Giambi (both recepiants of MVP titles which were driven by steroid use).

I'm not doing this as some sort of witch hunt, because I have actually defended Pete Rose and Bonds in the past, but more with the sport of baseball in mind. Baseball's house is built on statistics. The massive trove of numbers and unmatched fetish for the spreadsheet is what drives the sport and its fanatics. What these men did was tamper with the very nature, the essense of baseball by tarnishing not just their own statistics but all of the statistics of an era. Now, all atheletes from this era, guilty or not, will have future generations discounting their acheivements due to the spectre of steroid use. That is an appaling thought. The only equivalent I can imagine,is the pitching statistics of the turn of the century -- which are usually discounted due to widespread use of spit balls and dead ball.

If they do not clean house and do so overwhelmingly, the sport's integrity may be forever tarnished.

Just some thoughts I was having this morning as the situation continues to develop. I would like to add, I feel very conflicted about this and I would love to hear other people's thoughts...whether from other baseball fans or sportsfans in general.

[Hank Scorpio]

let me start by saying baseball, far and away, is my favorite professional sport, and i am a yankees fan.

as for the steroid issue...i find it amazing the amount of backlash from the american public over this giambi thing. i was reading espn.com polls where something like 90% of the people thought that steroids were a disgrace...yet only 7% or so were surpised at the announcement. one would imagine that if most people were not surprised by the news of the last 2 days [and i am not, it only confirmed my suspicions], then they would not root for players who they felt disgraced the game. yet baseball rode Bic Mac's juiced up forearms back to the national consciousness in 1998-99. Hypocrites. and the same people that worshipped mcgwire are making giambi a pariah. hypocrites. all of them.

Fact is, the longball is popular. Cambridge, i take it you, like myself, are a purist. i'd prefer to see a well pitched, 3-2 ballgame than the 12-9 slugest. but that doesn't sell. offense does. so you get what you have the last 2 days...which has got to be just the tip of the iceberg.

i'd love to see the problem completely excised from the game. but they're still going to be used. there's probably already a new designer steroid that major leaguer's are taking that can pass the urine test. and even if you get caught...players union is too powerful to make any severe punishment possible right now. maybe in 2006 or whenever the current CBA expires.

all i know is i'll be at the Stadium come april. and i'll cheer every longball the yankees hit and won't raise an eyebrow at the next 500 ft blast i see. unfortunately, i think, the juice is here to stay, so i am gonna roll with it, like i have my whole life.

- borat

PS - if the yanks void giambi's contract but hold on to sheffield's, you'll see what people really care about.

[Cambridge]

Borat, I agree with you on a lot of points. First off, baseball is my first love as well.

And by no means would I ever criticize Bonds or Giambi and not question McGuire. Are you kidding me? There is a reason he left the game when he did...smelled funny to me.

Anyways, this is also not because Giambi is a Yankee or a former A either. There are plenty of other players have had a stink around them.

Nomar for one, in Boston. Hell, I loved Nomar, but his antics and strange fluctuation in size were talked about widely, at least on the fan level. Speculation is he stopped in early 2000-2001. But eyebrows were raised by the the strange rise and then dip in his productivity. His random mood swings. Of course all speculation. None of it backed up by evidence. Maybe true, maybe not. But the spectre is out there and tarnishes everyone now.

My question is also, how do other sports deal with this problem? Is there a rampant problem in the NFL? Or the NBA? Do they have different policies regarding doping? Is there a way that baseball can deal with it in an honest and open way?

[SFHoya99]

Baseball died?

I find it humerous how many people assault baseball for steroids/hgh/etc. Has anyone looked at an NFL player recently? Good lord.

[CAHoya07]

Since Barry Bonds has been my favorite baseball player for much of my life (and yes, being a die-hard San Francisco Giants fan has a lot to do with that ), and because I have defended him time and time again over the past few years, I'll drop my two cents.

Yes, last week's events were a big deal for baseball, and no, like most people, the revelations did not shock me but merely confirmed my suspicions. What I want to know is why all of a sudden the San Francisco Chronicle got their hands on this testimony that took place nearly a YEAR ago, and why it is all of a sudden becoming known to the public now.

As for Barry, Giambi & Co. being banned from baseball a la Pete Rose, the answer should be an emphatic NO. It would be ridiculous if everybody that was found to have used steroids were banned from the sport. There would be a mass exodus of players, which would kill the game worse than it is already being harmed.

Besides, under baseball's rules, Bonds and Giambi did not break any rule. MLB did not have a real steroid policy until recently, and during the time that Bonds and Giambi allegedly used the cream and the clear, they were doing nothing illegal.

What drives me nuts is that Bonds has been and always will be the scapegoat and posterboy for baseball's steroid crisis. The only reason for that is that simply, he is the best baseball player of our generation, and perhaps ever, although his steroid admission now takes significant steam from that argument. Bonds was an incredible baseball player before his now admitted steroid use, and his longevity and ability to keep a clear mind amidst all the steroid talk and continue to be the best hitter in baseball remains amazing to me.

Just look at the other players that are caught in this mix. Nomar couldn't have done what Barry did. Giambi took steroids and got WORSE. Sheffield also admitted to "unknowingly" taking steroids and while he's a great player, he's not even on Bonds' level. Ken Caminiti took steroids and had an MVP year, but it's nothing compared to what Bonds has done. Canseco was solid, and McGwire's numbers were amazing, but they still don't come close to Bonds' overall achievements - batting titles, Gold gloves, 500+ stolen bases, 703 home runs and counting, and hopefully, a World Series ring in the twilight of his career .

The point I am trying to make is the only reason why everybody is pointing their fingers at Bonds is because he is so good. I commend him for that, not crucify him, and I'll still cheer when he breaks the home run record. His critics try to say that HE is the problem with baseball, when in fact, he is not. The problem with baseball is the current SYSTEM under which baseball players can get away with juicing and jepordize the sanctity and integrity of the game. Bonds, Giambi and Co. are merely products of this flawed system.

The only solution to this crisis is to institute strict, new drug testing policies, that happens on a REGULAR BASIS and includes EVERYONE. Fix the system before it's too late. Perhaps offenders like Bonds and Giambi should get suspended for some games as well. However, that would be really hard to do considering that under baseball's laws at the time, they did nothing illegal. Players before them have gotten away with the same things in the past and received no punishment, so I don't feel that this would be fair.

Finally, should Barry's numbers in the recordbook and those of all other offenders be accompanied by an asterisk? No, because he did not do anything illegal based on MLB rules. There will always be an unofficial asterisk next to his name, however, and I think that is punishment enough.

Baseball just needs to get tough and make sure that this doesn't happen again. I'm not sure about other sports' policies, but here's a link to an NFL player getting busted for the 'roids, showing that the problem is not confined to baseball...
msn.foxsports.com/story/3219322

[DanMcQ]

Hank Aaron: "Let me say this. Any way you look at it, it's wrong."

sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1939208

[GUHoya07]

Even if Bonds breaks the homerun record it should not be respected at all. No, he didn't technically break any MLB rules at the time I guess, but he knew he was taking some kind of shady performance enhancing drugs and I don't buy that he had no idea what they were. You don't just smear some kind of cream on yourself and do whatever else you do with that stuff without knowing what it basically is and what its supposed to do.

Bonds has no right breaking the homerun record after this and neither does anyone else who takes steroids. I have nothing personal against Barry, but what he did is just plain wrong, no matter how you try to spin it. Does something have to be illegal for people to have morals?

[CAHoya07]

GUHoya2007 said:

Even if Bonds breaks the homerun record it should not be respected at all. No, he didn't technically break any MLB rules at the time I guess, but he knew he was taking some kind of shady performance enhancing drugs and I don't buy that he had no idea what they were. You don't just smear some kind of cream on yourself and do whatever else you do with that stuff without knowing what it basically is and what its supposed to do.

Bonds has no right breaking the homerun record after this and neither does anyone else who takes steroids. I have nothing personal against Barry, but what he did is just plain wrong, no matter how you try to spin it. Does something have to be illegal for people to have morals?

I'm not saying that what Barry did wasn't wrong. It clearly was wrong, and I don't really buy that he "unknowingly" took them either. My point is that you can't just completely erase Barry's statistical accomplishments over the course of his career. If you did that, you would have to wipe away the slates of McGwire, Canseco, Caminiti, Giambi, and everyone else who has proved to take steroids. It's not even feasible, let alone right.

Something needs to be done, but you can't just erase Barry from the record book. It would be unfair and further damaging to the game. You can't just single Barry out for a problem that extends well beyond simply him. Barry's chase for the home run record is now officially tainted, and it will be interesting to see the controversy and outcry that will undoubtedly arise when he continues the chase in the spring.

I, for one, will still be rooting for him, probably against everybody else, because steroids or otherwise, I still take him to be one of the greatest players to have ever played the game. Period.

[Cambridge]

If you can keep Pete Rose -- the greatest hitter ever to play the game -- out of the Hall, you can keep Bonds, McGuire and the other cheaters out. They can keep their tarnished records, but I think that they stay out of the Hall. End of story.

[SFOHoya]

CAHoya07 said:

Besides, under baseball's rules, Bonds and Giambi did not break any rule. MLB did not have a real steroid policy until recently, and during the time that Bonds and Giambi allegedly used the cream and the clear, they were doing nothing illegal.

[clip clip]

Finally, should Barry's numbers in the recordbook and those of all other offenders be accompanied by an asterisk? No, because he did not do anything illegal based on MLB rules.

Just because MLB says steroids aren't against the rules, is it implict that they are OK to use?

If the MLB rulebook doesn't cover, say treason or racketeering (sp?), and a player was found doing one of those two, would MLB have the right to punish/suspend them, even thought these transgressions are not specifically covered in the MLB rules? How would it affect their records? Would they make it into the Hall of Fame?

I think you know where I'm going with this.... Non-medically prescribed steroid use is illegal by US / State law(s). As such, MLB can and should punish/suspend steroid users. Saying "it isn't against the rules" doesn't cut it.

I am a Giants and baseball fan as well. But I have cancelled my partial ticket plan for next year at PacBell. I've had enough of this sick ruse that is stinking up this sport.

[Nevada Hoya]

Track and field has been the only sport that has consistently been having drug testing for at least 20 years. And yes the popularity of track and field has suffered over the years, because of the banning of athletes. When you have a basic sport like running, statistics are everything. But they have worked over the years to catch the cheaters. It hasn't always worked, but as the detection of these banned substances gets better, the temptation to use them lowers. I think track and field is at a point, where the detectors are ahead of the cheaters, maybe for the first time. I don't know how long this will last, but maybe a new culture will evolve and the sport will be clean for a while. The argument that MLB never banned some of these drugs and the use of them did not constitute actually cheating is a pretty hollow argument. The use of THG, which was just detected recently, is banned in track and field, even though it was not actually listed, because it is a substance that could enhance performance and its extended use could be deleterious to the body. So the banned substances are both actual and implied in track and field. I think the other popular spectator professional sports in the US better get their acts together or the credibility gap will drive a lot of people away.

[Cambridge]

If the punishment isn't harsh then what prevents high school, college and minor league atheletes today looking at their acheivements and minimal punishments and saying "hell, give me that drug...now!" Sorry, but if I was in college right now and saw a wrist slapping, I'm taking the drugs. End of story.

They have to come down hard on everyone McGuire, Bonds, Canseco, Giambi, etc...with whom their is enough evidence. In my opinion, credible testimony is good enough evidence in this case. That is what Pete Rose was banned on. So it is the level of evidence required.

[Nevada Hoya]

Agree, Cambridge, if they want to get rid of the problem or at least make some progress, they have to adapt a strong program of deterence. Coming back to track and field, they just banned Michelle Collins for EIGHT years, and she didn't even test positive, but from all the evidence and testimony (mainly from BALCO) they looked at her tests and figured out the epitestosterone/testosterone ratio was indicative of drugging.

[Cambridge]

Good article in SI this week on this topic and high school sports....