MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 20, 2004 14:12:47 GMT -5
Disagree. Artest knew what he was doing when he laid down on the scorer's table (what same individual in THAT situation does that anyway). Artest was mocking Wallace and the fans and the whole situation. He was pulling a Rodman. If he had kept standing but kept his distance or if he ahd just walked back towards his bench as the refs figured everything out then he would have been alright in my book (except for his unnecessary hard foul on Wallace at the end). Instead that nutjob decided to pull a Rodman by staying on that table for what seemed like forever, acting as if he had nothing to do with what was going on and didn't have a care in the world. It was, in my eyes, as insulting as T.O.'s celebration inside the Dallas star a few years back. Wallace should have contained his anger but I don't blame him for growing more ticked off as Artest pull that stunt. Even worse Artest MADE HIMSELF a target for the fans. What he did was interpreted as a taunt. A taunt to a bunch of fans who are infamous for their crude behavior. A bunch of fans who despise the Pacers and Artest even more. While he did not deserve to be hit with flying objects he sure did ask for it and put himself in a position to get tagged.
And then, like the punk he is, he charged the fans in the stand. His cowardly butt wanted nothing of Wallace. But some pip-squeak fan was an inviting target? That's proving your manhood. Worse of all it appears he attacked the wrong paying customer. Stupid.
I keep hearing that the players have the right to defend themselves. True. But how are you defending yourself by going into the lion’s den with thousands of hostile fans? If a dozen or a hundred fans summon the courage to defend the guy you’re going after your goose is cooked. It could have led to a riot in which drunk customers in large numbers storm the court and go after the Pacers. That could have led to permanent physical damage or even some deaths. Artest not only put himself and that fan he attacked in danger. He put his teammates, his coaches and the security officers who would try to regain the peace in danger as well. He is a selfish psycho.
No one respects John Saunders more than me. He is an intelligent, engaging man who is also one of the biggest Gtown supporters you can find in the media. He is also not afraid to criticize players when needed. But he was just flat out wrong in some of his points last night.
Those Pacers are paid professionals who have something to lose. For them to go running wild into the stands display their stupidity. I believe there are some comments that are ALMOST worthy of consideration to go charging into the stands. But having a plastic cup of water/beer tossed on your stomach is not worthy of such blind outrage. Get security, point out the fan who did it and have that fan arrested. Going into the stands to escalate a situation is absurd. And considering the person Artest punched in the stands didn’t actually throw the item, I don’t see how THAT fan got what he deserved.
I had the same thoughts. The amazing thing is that panel is often very critical of guys like Artest but last night they had his back. Most of the radio guys felt that way too. Even the the Fox Radio Network announcers thought Artest and his teammates were right. One dude said the fans are guests in the players’ home (in this case the home being the Pistons’ arena). Nonsense. That is the home of the Detroit fans; they are the ones who keep the electricity on by buying tickets which ultimately pays the bills. It’s the players of the opposing teams who are the guests; guests who are paid to entertain. Now that doesn’t give the fans the right to starting throwing items at the visitors of course but lets not forget whose home it really is.
In retrospect he did look a little crazed at times on the court. The news I have heard recently is that there is a history of mental instability in his family.
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Post by HoyaOnBothSides on Nov 20, 2004 14:21:38 GMT -5
The security staff's attitude isn't anti-student ... it's protecting the players. If the detriot security would have lined up with 5 minutes left in front of the crowd, trust me, no one would be throwing cups full of beer at players with a 250 lb security staff member staring them in the eye.
I was at that syracuse game, and there were plenty of students at the game not sitting in the student section (as there are at every big game), but also students AND non-students charging the court from EVERY section, not just the student. If you think for a minute the only dangerous situation at that time arose from security mistreating fans, you are gravely mistaken.
There are other ways to celebrate Buffalo, and don't worry, there are other and much better ways to get on the front page of the washington post.
Thebin said it best "Fans must stay in the stands, players on the court."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2004 14:22:57 GMT -5
This whole Artest-Jackson-O'Neal-Wallace thing just got interesting: all four are suspended indefinitely. I think the player's union has a buit-in grievance: how in the world were fans walking onto the court that easily? If there's ONE thing I excuse the players for last night, its fighting back ON the court. You never know what those complete dopes are looking to start. However, it never should have gotten that far - there was no reason at all for Artest or anyone else to run into the stands. All this defense they are getting from the media is insane. Guys get crap thrown on them all the time, its unfortunate, but its becoming part of the game. I've seen it happen a lot - and if the players raise a big enough stink, security will throw EVERYONE in the area out to ensure the "victimized" team their interests are being looked out for. I was surprised the first time I saw it that Artest went from what seemed like a very calm disposition to raving loon in the blink of an eye. Maybe I shouldn't have been...
GO HOYAS!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2004 14:26:33 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but rushing the court/field has been a part of college sports for years and years. Like it or not, its here to stay. Protecting the players? Did they think we were rushing the court to maim and destroy 'Cuse players? Please. I think there is an enormous difference between college and pro sports, and students rushing to celebrate a big win is an entirely different ballpark from anything close to what happened last night. Unfortunately, at MCI there is no deliniation between the two... yet another reason we should be out of there as soon as is humanly possible.
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Thomas
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Post by Thomas on Nov 20, 2004 15:12:17 GMT -5
I have to side with the players on this one. In basketball, the only reason you don't see IDIOT fans get their A$$ kicked more often is because the players are restrained when they are provoked by fans. In other sports, its because there is more of an imposing barrier between the fans and the players. You don't think there would be incidents of outfielders or pitchers in the bullpen beating the crap out of hecklers if there weren't a wall seperating them?? You don't think a football player would beat up a fan who threw a battery at him if he had easy access to the fan??
In my opinion, some GOOFBALL who feels its necessary to provoke(throwing objects) an athlete needs to be dealt with in a violent way. If a fan throws something at an unrestrained player who is about 10 feet away from him, the fans deserves the beat-down. That Detroit fan should have acted like most COWARDLY fans do and thrown stuff at the players when they have no chance of gettting to them. You guys know how this goes, a fight occurs, the visiting player gets ejected, the home fans throw stuff at him as he is going into the tunnel ONLY because the player is surrounded by security and has no chance of retaliating.
YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE MCI CENTER STAFF BEING PIECES OF GARBAGE!!!
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Joe Hoya
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Post by Joe Hoya on Nov 20, 2004 16:08:55 GMT -5
When I heard the guy on NBC4 last night say "You're not gonna believe what happened in the Pacers-Pistons game" I said "What did Ron Artest do this time?" So I was surprised to see that it wasn't his fault. Look, it's about time that the drunk morons who feel that they are entitled to throw things on the court and at the players got what they had coming to them. I mean, I obviously can't condone going into the stands to fight with the fans that essentially pay your salary, but when stuff like that happens, I cannot under any circumstances blame the players for what they did. Ron Artest fouled Ben Wallace a little too hard. Ben Wallace overreacted. Artest did the right thing in backing away. Artest laying on the scorer's table to me was like Terrell Owens doing a dance in the end zone after a score - it's clearly bringing attention to himself, but nobody gets hurt by it. It was no big deal, especially in light of Artest's history. When whatever object hit him, and he blew up, he certainly shouldn't have gone into the stands. But what would you have done? If you say you would have gotten up and ignored it, you're a liar. You would have wanted to kick somebody's...I'll go with "keyster" (in the interests of obeying the rules . So don't look down on Ron Artest. You would have done the same. I know I probably would have (if I didn't trip over the chairs on the way up). And about the MCI Center staff...grow up, fellas. These people are doing their jobs. As students, rejecting authority and being unruly is your job. When you're part of the event staff, keeping order and keeping people off of the floor is your job. Sure, I'd love to charge the court after a game, and should a big victory come in the next two seasons, I probably will. But I can't fault the staff at MCI for trying to do what they are supposed to do. Launching an attack against them is just wrong. If they give you trouble, and you aren't doing anything wrong, ignore their orders. When they get the security chief to have you removed, calmly explain that you are just watching the game. Part of the problem is that the drunks get belligerent whenever someone disagrees with them regardless of the subject matter. When you do the same, sober or not, they assume you're wasted and get tough with you. If you remain calm, there shouldn't be a problem. Oh, and there are PLENTY of empty seats, so whoever complained about people getting kicked out of the aisles, get a life. There's no reason to oppose the concept of keeping the aisles clear.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Nov 20, 2004 17:00:46 GMT -5
This also doesn't take into account the game-to-game attitude of the MCI staff that is blatantly anti-student. For the last 5 minutes of what seemed like every game when I was there, the "MCI Army" would stand in front of us blocking our view and to ensure we didnt' cause any trouble (what are they expecting when GU plays Howard? TROUBLE??). I had friends THROWN OUT because they were repeatedly "in the aisles" and not directly in their aisle seat. LEGIT, NON-VULGAR signs were routinely taken away, torn up. This isn't an NBA game where anyone in the lower bowl is shelling out lotsa money for a seat. This is a STUDENT SECTION where students are cheering on their team. In four years I went to every game but 3 and I never heard any near-by fans complaining about student behavior. The MCI Army is more often than not, in my opinion, overstepping their bounds and its THEIR behavoir that leads me to believe we need an on-campus arena much sooner than many believe, simply because they ruin the experience for many of the team's most passionate fans. GO HOYAS!!! EXACTLY!!!!! There is no excuse for most of the stuff MCI Staff does to ruin the experience at games, and if you think that doesn't contribute to the less than great atmosphere at games and weaker student attendance then you are out of your mind. Kids want to be involved in a student section like they seen on ESPN at college basketball games. When they come to MCI and get harrassed by the staff it leaves a bad taste in their mouths and is likely to make them not want to come to many games unless they are die-hards. And if anyone has a problem with some students rushing the floor after a big win they are insane. This is college basketball!!!!!!! Rushing the floor is one of the greatest most exciting things in college sports and when we upset someone big I want that opportunity. To try and stop that is completey ridiculous and if a member of the MCI Staff tries to stop me they better be ready, because I'm going to do everything in my power to get through them and bring my fellow fans with me. MCI STAFF SUCKS!
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Nov 20, 2004 17:12:58 GMT -5
And about the MCI Center staff...grow up, fellas. These people are doing their jobs. As students, rejecting authority and being unruly is your job. When you're part of the event staff, keeping order and keeping people off of the floor is your job. Sure, I'd love to charge the court after a game, and should a big victory come in the next two seasons, I probably will. But I can't fault the staff at MCI for trying to do what they are supposed to do. Launching an attack against them is just wrong. If they give you trouble, and you aren't doing anything wrong, ignore their orders. When they get the security chief to have you removed, calmly explain that you are just watching the game. Part of the problem is that the drunks get belligerent whenever someone disagrees with them regardless of the subject matter. When you do the same, sober or not, they assume you're wasted and get tough with you. If you remain calm, there shouldn't be a problem. Oh, and there are PLENTY of empty seats, so whoever complained about people getting kicked out of the aisles, get a life. There's no reason to oppose the concept of keeping the aisles clear. The MCI staff does plenty of BS stuff that is uncalled for. I understand that they are supposed to do their jobs but they don't understand the difference between doing their jobs and being complete a-holes who kill student spirit. Buffalo is completely correct on this matter.When someone in the front row jumps forward a few inches too far and is subsequently warned for doing so I find that insanity and completely unneccesary. They make big deals out of nothing and kill spirit. I can understand that they have to deal with stuff from drunk fans and so they are overly sensitive, but a lot of those problems also come from being to particular about little rules and they also have to know the difference between dealing with a drunken idiot and ruining an innocent students good time at a game. And are you serious about the aisle thing? I mean, yeah, the guy should probably be in front of his seat but this is supposed to be college basketball. A huge part of what makes it so much fun is the excitement and going crazy. If a guy jumps out into the aisle or stands there for a few minutes does that really affect anything? I can see the staff mentioning it to a student, but when they stand there watching to make sure that no one enters the aisle and then harass people for doing so it is absurd. The Staff needs to know the difference between important violations that should be stopped, and meaningless little things that just cause friction between everyone.
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Joe Hoya
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Post by Joe Hoya on Nov 20, 2004 17:20:53 GMT -5
Rushing the floor is one of the greatest most exciting things in college sports It's also one of the most dangerous, and you have to realize that. I wanna storm the court as much as anyone, but I realize that the people paid to prevent me from doing so are going to do whatever they can to prevent me from doing so. It just concerns me that people who I consider to be good fans (such as yourself) are getting so violently worked up at something so stupid. Let them do their job. It shouldn't hinder your support of the team in any way. You can scream and yell and stay out of the aisles all at the same time.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 20, 2004 17:26:34 GMT -5
Considering at least two of the fans that got lit up appear to be innocents then how in the world is that justified? Be the better man and stay out of the stands.
Don't see it that way. Most of the trash talking and taunting that fans do don't hurt either and yet players complain about it all the time. And it goes both ways. Players taunt to. Artest was essentially taunting Wallace and the fans. It was a stupid move on his part and he ended up getting what he wanted.
No offense but speak for yourself. If I had half a brain I understand that ANY crowd can become a potential, deadly mob. At any time. For any reason. If I was Artest size I may be able to handle some punk fan and his buddy. But five guys? Fifty? Five hundred? Ten thousand? Obviously math wasn't taught at St. John's. Check your ego, tell security, suck it up, walk away. Don't deliver a black eye to your teammates, your team, your sport, your family and yourself. Be a REAL man and let it go. This is not like two average guys on the street who go at it. The only person who can really lose in such a confrontation is the MILLIONAIRE athlete. His pockets will be hurt, his endorsements may vanish and his team wil suffer as a result of his absence. And if the crowd is really drunk and really rowdy they might just go after you and end your life right then and there. Only a fool taunts a stampede. Just walk away and allow the fans to look like the only idiots.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 20, 2004 17:27:14 GMT -5
The only people I feel bad for, and very bad at that, are the parents who took their little children to the game only to have them witness the lowest humanity has to offer. This is the same way I feel about families taking their children to Georgetown games (and most college basketball games for that matter) only to witness drunk, spoiled fans (mostly students) who think they have an influence on the game embarass themselves. This idea in fans' heads that they have some sort of right to influence the outcome of the game with their purchase of a ticket, combined with overconsumption of alcohol, is what this is all about and why is it amazing things like this don't happen more often. The people who take their little children to sit courtside at a Pistons game, or to the bleachers at Yankee stadium, or even to the Big East Tournament are idiots. I don't feel sorry for them at all.
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TC
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Post by TC on Nov 20, 2004 17:34:02 GMT -5
Check your ego, tell security, suck it up, walk away. Don't deliver a black eye to your teammates, your team, your sport, your family and yourself. Be a REAL man and let it go. This is not like two average guys on the street who go at it. The only person who can really lose in such a confrontation is the MILLIONAIRE athlete. His pockets will be hurt, his endorsements may vanish and his team wil suffer as a result of his absence. And if the crowd is really drunk and really rowdy they might just go after you and end your life right then and there. Only a fool taunts a stampede. Just walk away and allow the fans to look like the only idiots. The thing that got me was that Artest got up and walked away from Ben Wallace (my guess is because Wallace would have kicked his butt). He didn't back away from smaller fans. Which is more of a threat to Artest? - an empty water bottle? - a shove from a bigger guy who was provoked? Artest chose to pick on the easier target.
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Nov 20, 2004 17:43:50 GMT -5
It just concerns me that people who I consider to be good fans (such as yourself) are getting so violently worked up at something so stupid. Let them do their job. It shouldn't hinder your support of the team in any way. You can scream and yell and stay out of the aisles all at the same time. Joe, It definitely won't hinder my support of the team in any way. However, some of the stuff they do is extremely frustrating and uncalled for. The reason I am getting so worked up about it is that it makes the atmosphere at games less enjoyable and it does hurt the average fans support for the team. Most people won't come to every single game and support the team no matter what. If they aren't having much fun and have to deal with annoying Staff members then they are less likely to attend games, thus hurting our attendance and overall support for the team. But regardless of what happens, I will always support the team with everything I've got, no matter what kind of idiots are working there.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Nov 21, 2004 7:49:49 GMT -5
...and threw a drink in your face, how would you respond?
Realize that this customer threw this drink in your face after berating you, your family and your co-workers...sometimes yelling racial slurs...
Would you call security and point him out?
I don't know about you, but when the cops showed up, I'd still be kicking this "Em-Effer" in the rib-cage!!!
The majority of you won't even try to see this from the player's perspective...You've already decided that because they make a certain amount of money that they should accept certain treatment from people...
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DanMcQ
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Post by DanMcQ on Nov 21, 2004 8:16:35 GMT -5
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Post by showcase on Nov 21, 2004 9:51:08 GMT -5
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GUHoya07
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Post by GUHoya07 on Nov 21, 2004 10:24:02 GMT -5
The majority of you won't even try to see this from the player's perspective...You've already decided that because they make a certain amount of money that they should accept certain treatment from people... Not true at all, it has nothing to do with them making any amount of money. I would hold all people to this standard. Players cant run into the stands and start attacking people, and fans also cant throw stuff at the players or come down onto the floor to attack players.
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aggypryd
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Post by aggypryd on Nov 21, 2004 10:58:03 GMT -5
I totally agree...This incident was long overdue... This was nothing more than a reflection of our society...Violence just breeds more violence...
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Post by HoyaOnBothSides on Nov 21, 2004 10:58:45 GMT -5
The majority of you won't even try to see this from the player's perspective...You've already decided that because they make a certain amount of money that they should accept certain treatment from people... You can see it from a player's perspective and still think they acted completely out of line. Though you don't see it, there is something to do here with what player's do and how much they make. Many players (David Wells and Anthony Mason come to mind) have gotten into bar brawls with over aggressive fans yelling and insulting them. I have no problem with this. This is the reaction you are talking about; a reaction that does not incite a riot AT YOUR PLACE OF WORK. Charging into the stands at a game is completely different. Tell me you don't see the inherent difference. If you can't see the distinction, or if you cannot handle the responsibility, then don't be a professional athlete. Take a job where your actions don't have effects on thousands of people in an arena and ripple through to millions of people worldwide. If someone throws a beer at you in your Morgan Stanley office, by all means go nuts. Basketball players, much like other celebrities, make a choice to do what they do, and are handsomely rewarded. Every player gets harassed. Only Ron Artest reacted the way he did. They need to throw the book at all those guys bottom line. No one would would be talking about this if it happened in a bar. Unfortunately, it didn't.
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MCIGuy
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Post by MCIGuy on Nov 21, 2004 11:56:56 GMT -5
Nonsense. I defend the NBA and its players on this site more than anyone else. I think they get a bad rap and am sick of the abuse they receive. But unlike others on both sides of the aisle I don't have an agenda or an inflexible political stance. When I think someone is wrong I point it out. I don't just take sides with one group exclusively. Instead I look at the situation and come to a conclusion. And this time all of my common sense tells me Artest and Co were morons for sinking to the fans' level.
And stop this talk about what we would do on the street. We have already addressed that what goes on the real world does not necessarily apply to what goes on the court. We are not millionaire athletes with money to lose. We are not targets who may cause a riot amongst a bunch of drunken fans WHO HATE OUR GUTS. The eyes of the world are on guys like Artest in games like that and he can only lose by going into the stands like a madman trying to get some form of retribution (without even knowing the guilty party). He's a joke. And I'm insulted at the suggestion that I would act like him and do the same thing if I was in his position.
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