Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Feb 1, 2007 10:42:05 GMT -5
The facts in question were as to Barack's "responsible plan" and Senator Biden's comments about Obama (See first post in thread). Because I provided no link to the source, said facts were questioned. I assume they no longer are.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Feb 1, 2007 10:47:40 GMT -5
Congrats on the oversimplification. Please help me out here. If you have a mess in your own yard and all over your neighborhood, whose do you clean first? P.S. Please point out my factual misstatement. Ok, there is a difference between making an unsubstantiated argument in which you cite no facts, that is a tautology. Second, maybe I want to clean up the whole mess. You can't claim sweeping universal values in one breath and limit them to your community in the next, otherwise you look like a hypocrite.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Feb 1, 2007 10:49:38 GMT -5
Guilty. I am an America first hypocrite who wants to see living babies allowed to continue doing so.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Feb 1, 2007 10:54:36 GMT -5
You forgot to say "... living AMERICAN babies ..."
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Feb 1, 2007 10:57:37 GMT -5
My argument about babies was in direct response to positions espoused by Senator Jugears in voting against BAIPA. I'd like all babies to live, but we here in the USA don't control domestic policy abroad now do we?
However, I think we can agree that not all babies can live here in the USA, can't we?
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Post by Badger Hoya on Feb 1, 2007 11:19:20 GMT -5
it should be more difficult for an unemployed young Middle Eastern male to enter/immigrate to this country than a 30 yr old Canadian woman with a Master's degree. In other words, better risk management as opposed to wholesale shutting of borders. Because frankly, we need more of those Canadian women in this country these days. Revise your statement - we know nothing about the male immigrant - if he is fleeing political oppression and meets the status of a refugee then let's take him - that's the humane thing to do. Overall thought it must be interesting to live in Elvado's world where you get to decide that American fetuses are worth protecting but third world immigrants that are coming to this country are not. Very interesting moral stance. I think we're saying the same thing here. A) You shouldn't have the same standards for everyone entering the country (refugee, work visa, illegal, student). B) Those standards shouldn't be the same for every originating country. The only way to do this is to have proper quantifiable risk management that is simplistic enough to process applications on a more timely level. Finally, while I agree that refugees should be accepted generally, I would also add that there is a limit to which we can accept refugees at a single time -- see Muriel Boat Lift, Haiti.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Feb 1, 2007 11:36:11 GMT -5
Revise your statement - we know nothing about the male immigrant - if he is fleeing political oppression and meets the status of a refugee then let's take him - that's the humane thing to do. Overall thought it must be interesting to live in Elvado's world where you get to decide that American fetuses are worth protecting but third world immigrants that are coming to this country are not. Very interesting moral stance. I think we're saying the same thing here. A) You shouldn't have the same standards for everyone entering the country (refugee, work visa, illegal, student). B) Those standards shouldn't be the same for every originating country. The only way to do this is to have proper quantifiable risk management that is simplistic enough to process applications on a more timely level. Finally, while I agree that refugees should be accepted generally, I would also add that there is a limit to which we can accept refugees at a single time -- see Muriel Boat Lift, Haiti. Actually many people from the Muriel Boat Lift ended up getting refugee status - just studied it in International Law and US Litigation. But I agree with everything you said with the proviso that we are under a moral duty to not return refugees to a place where they will be persecuted or lose their rights.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Feb 1, 2007 11:59:16 GMT -5
I also agree that we should not return refugees to such places. That is a bit far afield from letting Saudi nationals in to go to flight school, though isn't it.
Last I checked, going to college in the US is not a human right.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 1, 2007 12:43:25 GMT -5
The facts in question were as to Barack's "responsible plan" and Senator Biden's comments about Obama (See first post in thread). Because I provided no link to the source, said facts were questioned. I assume they no longer are. Actually, I still haven't found your source for the student visa claim. The reason I haven't asked anything further is because you have been so unhelpful in finding it that I gave up. It is one thing to spark intelligent and engaging debate, it is another to conduct muckracking and sensationally partisan sniping. Please cite your sources. Thank you.
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Post by Badger Hoya on Feb 1, 2007 13:33:01 GMT -5
I also agree that we should not return refugees to such places. That is a bit far afield from letting Saudi nationals in to go to flight school, though isn't it. Last I checked, going to college in the US is not a human right. While not a fundamental human right, it is absolutely in our interest to get the best and brightest to come here for school.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Feb 1, 2007 13:34:04 GMT -5
I also agree that we should not return refugees to such places. That is a bit far afield from letting Saudi nationals in to go to flight school, though isn't it. Last I checked, going to college in the US is not a human right. Nope, the right to an abortion is a human right - just like the right to not be persecuted and the right to claim refugee status. In addition to being the law of the land in the United States - it is the law of the land in most other states around the world and it is done out of the sense of obligation that it is a right. Therefore, I would argue that it is an emerging human right in Customary International Law.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Feb 1, 2007 13:40:03 GMT -5
You absolutely must be a law student.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 1, 2007 13:47:24 GMT -5
Nope, the right to an abortion is a human right - just like the right to not be persecuted and the right to claim refugee status. That's a major oxymoron. Nothing in the law has elevated elective abortion (or even infanticide) to such status. The law protects the general right to medically approved abortion services under specific circumstances but does not elevate it as you would suggest.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Feb 1, 2007 13:51:00 GMT -5
You absolutely must be a law student. Thanks. You know all we law students have to hang on to are Supreme Court decisions, the weight of the law of the United States, a sensible policy rationale, a moral perspective on human rights that isn't contradictory, and the weight of international law on the subject. Oh you want some cites on it? See Roe v. Wade, the 14th and 9th amendments, the resolutions of the UN General Assembly, the International Convention on the Rights of the Child and its definition of the word "child", and the Paquette Habana. You have a reference to something you think you heard about Barrack Obama and a baseless moral principle that certain rights are more important to uphold because they are "ours" and certain rights are less important because they belong to "others". All of these issues are issues of human rights.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Feb 1, 2007 14:00:18 GMT -5
If you are putting stock in the pabulum that was Blackmun's opinion in Roe, I'll hazard that you're not a very bright law student.
That opinion is devoid of legal foundation and was pulled whole cloth from under his robe. Of all of Nixon'a sins, appointing that joker is the worst.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 1, 2007 14:04:52 GMT -5
You absolutely must be a law student. And you sir, clearly aren't a lawyer or a student. I say that because you bristle at the very idea of citing sources or participating in an intellectual discussion based on the Constitution, immediate facts, federal and state laws, jurisprudence, history, tradition and the intent of our Founding Fathers. Rather, you prefer to lob broad generalizing allegations of immorality shrouded in righteousness from the anonymity of the interweb with scant respect for the intelligence and good-nature of those you engage.
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Elvado
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Post by Elvado on Feb 1, 2007 14:08:18 GMT -5
Having practiced for 18 years now, I do not believe in working when jousting on the web.
Congratulations, you are the best prepared and researched person on this chat board. Your folks must be very proud. Aren't you glad you weren't the subject of the human right of abortion?
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Feb 1, 2007 14:12:04 GMT -5
Nope, the right to an abortion is a human right - just like the right to not be persecuted and the right to claim refugee status. That's a major oxymoron. Nothing in the law has elevated elective abortion (or even infanticide) to such status. The law protects the general right to medically approved abortion services under specific circumstances but does not elevate it as you would suggest. Restatement of the Foreign Relations Law of the United States, Sec. 102 (3 ed. 1987) The following countries allow for a woman's right to an abortion - abortion is only banned in 5 nations: Vatican City, San Marino, Chile, Costa Rica, and Nicaragua. States consistently have allowed women the right to an abortion and do so out of a legal obligation. These rights are human - they inhere in the people. The ninth amendment to the US constitution recognizes human rights as a valid source of law: The Paquette Habana, 175 US 6677 (1900) commits the United States to upholding international law developed through custom as part of the law of the United States under Article VI of the US Constitution: Its not an oxymoron.
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Post by StPetersburgHoya (Inactive) on Feb 1, 2007 14:14:37 GMT -5
If you are putting stock in the pabulum that was Blackmun's opinion in Roe, I'll hazard that you're not a very bright law student. That opinion is devoid of legal foundation and was pulled whole cloth from under his robe. Of all of Nixon'a sins, appointing that joker is the worst. Maybe I'm not a very good law student, but I know libel when I see it. ON EDIT: By not very good, I mean I'm only top 10 percent at a Top 25 law school, on a law review, and have a summer clerkship with a federal judge as a 1L.
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 1, 2007 14:18:55 GMT -5
Wow, St Petes...I think you just shattered the glass ceiling of TVBP and have established a new watermark for self-inflicted accolades. Try not to pull something while patting yourself on the back.
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