|
Post by fxd79 on Mar 21, 2006 21:54:18 GMT -5
Here's one additional factor that has never come in for much discussion.
It is undeniable that one of the reasons why JTII was such a great recruiter in his prime was that he came across as a father figure, not only to potential recruits, but to their moms in particular. To name two examples, he established a rapport with Patrick Ewing's mom and AI's mom that were huge factors in the decisions their sons made to come to Georgetown. Pops promised these women that their sons would get an education as well as a top-flight basketball experience, and they loved him for it. I don't doubt for a minute that he had the same effect on many of his recruits' families.
By the same token, is it not possible that when a black coach pursues top white players, many of these young men and their families might (in general -- I'm sure there are many, amny exceptions that prove the rule) identify a little more with a coach who among other qualities might seem more familiar to them, more of a father figure, and that among one of the many reasons for this familiarity might be the fact that he's a white guy, like the other white authority figures that they've been used to having in their lives?
I do not claim to have any great insight into the recruiting process, or the factors responsible for a young man's college choice. But it does seem that there are more (whether absolutely or on a percentage basis) top-flight black players playing for white coaches than there are top-flight white players playing for black coaches. And isn't it at least possible that this is more due to the white players' own choice than any failure of black coaches, or their universities, to recruit them?
Another way of saying it is, assuming we have an excellent coach (which we clearly do) who is keen to recruit top-flight palyers of any color (which I assume to be the case), it might well be that in the end you are not going to see many white players choose to come to Georgetown -- and in that respect, at least, the team may never mirror the demographics of the student body.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2006 9:17:20 GMT -5
Georgetown has one of the most diverse student bodies of any university in the world. But apparently only certain kinds count in your mind. Not that I disagree with the rest of your post, or the majority of posters on this thread, but let's not kid ourselves..did anyone really feel like they were among a really diverse student body, much less one of the most diverse IN THE WORLD? Coming from New York, I certainly felt Georgetown was rather homogenous. Even the rankings prove otherwise: We're relatively low at 27%, around 5-10% lower than most schools I would consier on par academically with Georgetown. collegeapps.about.com/od/rankings/a/u_minorities.htmGU does have one of the more diverse student bodies in the world. Diversity is not just about Americans, whether they are black, Asian, Latino....Georgetown has a relatively high percentage of students from outside of the US. While many of them may look like white American kids, they may be French or German or Russian, and add greatly to the diversity of the place....so while the campus may not LOOK as diverse as some others, in reality it is.
|
|
SirSaxa
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 747
|
Post by SirSaxa on Mar 24, 2006 15:17:54 GMT -5
Another way of saying it is, assuming we have an excellent coach (which we clearly do) who is keen to recruit top-flight players of any color (which I assume to be the case), it might well be that in the end you are not going to see many white players choose to come to Georgetown -- and in that respect, at least, the team may never mirror the demographics of the student body. You raise some interesting points. But bear in mind a few things. JT3 had a LOT of white players at Princeton. There are far more top-flight white coaches and far more top flight African American players than the other way around. Without doing a statistical analysis, but just looking at the appartent percentage of African American players at top programs around the country, and in the NBA, it is quite clear they are represented far more heavily in those arenas than in the general population. Ergo, even if GU's student body exactly matched America's demos, the basketball team would still -- more than likely -- feature far more Blacks than the student body. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't see this as a big issue. GU will continue to try to achieve some level of diversity in its student body. JT3 will get the best players he can and most will likely be Black.
|
|
|
Post by hoyaterp25 on Mar 29, 2006 17:59:01 GMT -5
a comment about the community scholars program. Ill admit that I dont know much about it, but what I understand the premise to be is that minority students who achieve generally less well on test scores, etc. come to Georgetown the summer before freshmen year to help them get acclamated to the high academic standards. This is a good idea in terms of increasing diversity, however I have two issues with it. First, why not let all of the lower scoring students in, or at least open it up to all student from lower socio-economic background?
Second, in bringing minority students together over the summer, they get used to college life early, academically and socially, all of which is good. However they generally make friends with their soon-to-be peers, so when they come to school in the fall, they have a group of friends already made who are of hte same ethnicity. this exacerbates one of the diversity problems georgetown has- even though there is diversity, generally white kids are firends with white kids and black kids with black kids. its a very segregated social scene, not through any deliberate attempt i dont think, but the community scholars, in bringing minorities together sooner, lets them become friends and just naturally adds to this problem
|
|
Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,411
|
Post by Jack on Mar 29, 2006 20:27:40 GMT -5
Community scholars is not just for minority students. It is open to all students who are first generation college bound. It was originally specially designed for minority students, but it has been opened to students of all ethnicities, although it is certainly still primarily minority students in practice.
|
|
|
Post by utraquehoya on Mar 29, 2006 21:49:04 GMT -5
Community scholars is not just for minority students. It is open to all students who are first generation college bound. Is that just the program's public rhetoric or is it actually what regularly happens? Regarding, the question of whether the program encourages exclusive groups, I think community scholars tend to hang out with people of the same ethnic/racial group (not so much other community scholars per se). They're not alone, of course. There are a lot of one-flavor groups (wealthy or poor, black or white, sports/non, etc.). I don't think it's so much overt or deep racism, but a kind of forming of groups along one's comfort zone. That's not ideal of course, but I think it happens a lot. Poor white students, for example, have talked about how hard it is to hang out with their wealthier counterparts. Something painless for your average Georgetown student (e.g., dividing up cab fare), cuts deep in their pocketbooks. It's easier to hang out with people who understand.
|
|
hoya4ever
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 805
|
Post by hoya4ever on Mar 29, 2006 23:27:41 GMT -5
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,301
|
Post by Cambridge on Mar 30, 2006 1:30:15 GMT -5
Thanks
|
|
|
Post by HoyaSinceBirth on Apr 8, 2006 10:13:37 GMT -5
I think the points about the basketball team are erroneous. The real issue is socio economic and we simply don't have a competitive financial aid package yet. when that does happen we will see an increase in the minority population. I do think that the school is neither as homogeneous nor as diverse as sides would make it out to be. However i do believe we are doing the best we can right now.
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,301
|
Post by Cambridge on Apr 8, 2006 15:01:09 GMT -5
I think the points about the basketball team are erroneous. The real issue is socio economic and we simply don't have a competitive financial aid package yet. when that does happen we will see an increase in the minority population. I do think that the school is neither as homogeneous nor as diverse as sides would make it out to be. However i do believe we are doing the best we can right now. I got a very compelling financial aid package from Gtown that was totally needs based. Gtown is committed to meeting all students' demonstrated need as determined by the FAFSA. I don't think that is the issue. The issue is that Gtown does not offer very many merit based scholarships -- that is scholarships not dependent on the FAFSA. This is where many other schools can "steal" students from Gtown.
|
|
SaxaCD
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 4,401
|
Post by SaxaCD on Apr 11, 2006 10:00:09 GMT -5
Not that I disagree with the rest of your post, or the majority of posters on this thread, but let's not kid ourselves..did anyone really feel like they were among a really diverse student body, much less one of the most diverse IN THE WORLD? Coming from New York, I certainly felt Georgetown was rather homogenous. Even the rankings prove otherwise: We're relatively low at 27%, around 5-10% lower than most schools I would consier on par academically with Georgetown. collegeapps.about.com/od/rankings/a/u_minorities.htmGU does have one of the more diverse student bodies in the world. Diversity is not just about Americans, whether they are black, Asian, Latino....Georgetown has a relatively high percentage of students from outside of the US. While many of them may look like white American kids, they may be French or German or Russian, and add greatly to the diversity of the place....so while the campus may not LOOK as diverse as some others, in reality it is. Careful, it's always dangerous to bring up real definitions about words like "diversity" when many people only use them as codewords.
|
|
tgo
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 799
|
Post by tgo on Apr 11, 2006 16:47:56 GMT -5
for the class of 2010, 40% of the students admitted were minorities. Is that enough for the critics on this thread?
Bridge- just because some form or calculation says you can afford to pay for something, doesnt mean you really can.
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,301
|
Post by Cambridge on Apr 11, 2006 20:03:28 GMT -5
for the class of 2010, 40% of the students admitted were minorities. Is that enough for the critics on this thread? Bridge- just because some form or calculation says you can afford to pay for something, doesnt mean you really can. Not disagreeing with you. However, that is an objective standard. On that standard -- as minimal as that is -- Georgetown does alright. My point was that other universities are able to offer a LOT more as far as merit based aid is concerned. They can cover everything from travel, to books, to you name it. Georgetown simply doesn't compete in that arena.
|
|
Jack
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,411
|
Post by Jack on Apr 11, 2006 20:54:36 GMT -5
Addressing two separate issues:
Re 40% minority: Remember that includes 8% non-US citizens, who are a very important part of diversity, but do not meet everyone's definition of minority. Also remember that the entire minority group (and especially non-citizens) will not yield nearly as well as white, American students, at least partially due to...
Financial aid- Georgetown loses out on financial aid for two reasons. One is the aforementioned merit grants, which GU does not give and some schools, mostly down the pecking order, use it extensively to buy their best students, typically students with little to no need.
The other is in competitive packaging- in theory GU's need analysis should be very similar to its peers, and with some exceptions I believe the expected parent contributions are comparable to the Ivies, Stanford, etc. The problem comes with how the rest of it is paid for, and GU suffers there when Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Brown, Duke, etc. are able to buy out the federal loans GU students must take in most cases. The Georgetown Scholarship Program is beginning to address that gap, but it will only fund about 150 of the nearly 3000 undergrads on aid. That is why you will see aid as a major priority in the next capital campaign.
|
|
DFW HOYA
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 5,741
|
Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 11, 2006 21:28:08 GMT -5
That is why you will see aid as a major priority in the next capital campaign. The problem is that donating for financial aid is a hard sell in a campaign. If Georgetown does not come up with some innovation in this regard, the campaign will do little more than cover current use needs and faculty chairs, much as the past campaign did.
|
|
Cambridge
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Canes Pugnaces
Posts: 5,301
|
Post by Cambridge on Apr 12, 2006 12:08:47 GMT -5
That is why you will see aid as a major priority in the next capital campaign. The problem is that donating for financial aid is a hard sell in a campaign. If Georgetown does not come up with some innovation in this regard, the campaign will do little more than cover current use needs and faculty chairs, much as the past campaign did. I'm not sure how hard of a sell it really is...just about everyone I know has tagged their senior gift and every other subsequent gift (except for HHC "dues") for financial aid. I agree that a large capital campaign might be harder to swing, but it just takes one charismatic donor with deep pockets....oh, and it only took one charismatic pharoah and a million slaves to build the pyramids too. Sigh.
|
|