kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 15, 2006 17:43:32 GMT -5
1. I agree it's newsworthy, just not as big of a deal as a lot of people are making it 2. Cheney accepted full responsibility and didn't equivocate at all 3. Where have you read that Cheney and his office coached Armstrong? 4. I agree that by waiting the VP turned a minor story into a big one and set off a feeding frenzy 5. Lots of people won't care and will still attack him - exhibit #1 see SirSaxa's post above on breathilyzers, Haliburton, and so on. Democrats/Liberals will continue to hate the VP and allege a cover-up of some massive conspiracy. Republicans will acknowledge that this could and should have been handled better.
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 15, 2006 17:56:17 GMT -5
Why is this particular thing an issue outside of it being a police matter?
Listen, I think Dick Cheney is fairly close to being the devil incarnate, but he's far from the first guy to shoot someone while hunting. Now, if what he did requires legal action (manslaughter, murder, I dunno), then it becomes a story. But an accidental shooting?
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 15, 2006 18:02:29 GMT -5
1. That is a matter of opinion, so we'll have to agree to disagree. 2. Nobody is saying Cheney didn't accept full responsiblity. We are saying this is a departure from the spin put forth by Armstrong and demonstrates a flip-flop. 3. McClellan said in his press briefing on Monday that Cheney and the VP office asked Armstrong to come forward. Cheney acknowledged the coordination with Armstrong today. 5. In terms of breathalyzers, VP Cheney did admit to having a beer at lunch. Given his record of DUI's, it may have been appropriate to have this kind of thing be a part of the investigation to the extent there was one. In terms of Halliburton, the subject is old, but it is factually inaccurate to think or say that Halliburton has not done well during this administration.
Key Republicans won't acknowledge this should have been handled better. Indeed, VP Cheney said today that he has no regrets about how it was handled.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 15, 2006 18:30:57 GMT -5
His record of DUI's. Jeez that's only 43 years ago. I'm glad I'm dealing with you as the prosecutor on the other side of the table during negotiations.
I'm not here to debate Halliburton, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this. Why bring it up (not saying that you were the one that did)?
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 15, 2006 18:46:15 GMT -5
I don't believe there should be criminal proceedings in this matter, so the idea of building a case is a bit silly to me. I do believe alcohol should be a routine part of these kinds of investigations. Having seen the accident report, it is clear that it is, regardless of the shooter's personal background.
Again, I believe it is now the responsibility of VP Cheney and others to make sure the facts get out. It is a story, so it might as well be reported correctly. The alcohol part is one bit of that, and I think the VP should be commended for admitting to it given the media frenzy that has surrounded the issue after his office's bungled PR effort.
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thebin
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Post by thebin on Feb 15, 2006 19:24:49 GMT -5
"Of course, this is a true embarassment for Cheney. I am willing to accept that it is an accident and move on."
The level of disingenuousness of the above JerseyHoya statement is simply off the charts.
1. How gracious of you to concede it wasn't a murder plot. 2. The nation can breath a little easier knowing you are willing to move on, as if you were the sheriff of the jurisdiction the accident happened in or something, thanks for sharing. 3. This paean of self-regard, that you are ready to “move on,” in the introduction of a THREAD YOU STARTED on the topic. Who is moving on and to what exactly? You are precisely NOT ready to move on when you start one of these silly threads, so can we at least lose the vain way in which you try and start a Editeding contest about an accident? You are not conceding anything, even if your concession mattered to anyone, you are throwing mud and trying to wash your hands at the same time to look above the fray.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 15, 2006 19:27:20 GMT -5
Echo kchoya.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 15, 2006 19:42:43 GMT -5
I am not interested in exchanging personal attacks with you. I distinguish between Cheney's accidental shooting and the mishandled PR response to it. At the time of my posting, the circumstances of the shooting were unclear, and it could have been anything ranging from an accident to an egregious mistake by a hunter. Debate on the issue at the time of my first posting generally concerned whether it was simply a terrible case of Whittington being in the wrong place or Cheney's fault. Based on my reading, I chose the former, although I found it to be unfortunate for Armstrong to have discussed it as she did. I find it rather unfortunate that you impugn such motives with your comment about my alleged concession.
After learning more about the incident, my take has changed slightly. It appears Cheney is responsible, and I hold him responsible to the extent that one might in other accidents.
My criticisms in this thread from the very beginning have been targeted most directly at the unfortunate handling of the incident after the fact, not the shooting itself (outside of the comedy of it before Whittington's heart incident). My "move on" comment related in my interest in discussing the PR aspect of the incident rather than the shooting. My language there was probably unclear, for which I apologize.
In terms of "starting a Editeding contest," again you're off-base. The thread quickly moved to comedy and did not degenerate until Kennedy was discussed.
If you have something to add to the thread, add it. It is clear to me that nothing positive comes from my arguments with you. I wish not to engage you on the Cheney issue, and I will not reply to your posts on the issue. However, I will reply to your irresponsible assessment of motives because it is an attack of a personal nature, and I resent it.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 15, 2006 20:19:44 GMT -5
" you are throwing mud and trying to wash your hands at the same time to look above the fray. Actually, that is a description that more accurately applies to Cheney himself -- sending Armstrong out to blame the victim and following that up with White House press staff reinforcing that mistaken and dishonest view to reporters. Four days later Cheney can finally come forward and say "i pulled the trigger" -- pretending to take the high road and that he had nothing to do with the blaming of Whittington in the first place, and allowing that misconception to be put forward for four days?
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 16, 2006 11:56:00 GMT -5
Can I summarize? Everyone acknowledges that Cheney was responsible for what happened in the shooting. Everyone acknowledges that the most important post-events were handled properly: getting medical attention, notifying the local sheriff, notifying Whittington's spouse. And everyone (except Cheney) acknowledges that notification of the press was bungled. If anyone disagrees with any of this, speak up.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Feb 16, 2006 12:03:03 GMT -5
No disagreement here, easyed. Good post.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 16, 2006 12:43:33 GMT -5
I think that sums it up nicely.
Anyone notice the breath test ads at the top of the page?
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 16, 2006 14:59:38 GMT -5
Can I summarize? Everyone acknowledges that Cheney was responsible for what happened in the shooting. Everyone acknowledges that the most important post-events were handled properly: getting medical attention, notifying the local sheriff, notifying Whittington's spouse. And everyone (except Cheney) acknowledges that notification of the press was bungled. If anyone disagrees with any of this, speak up. Other than the implication that informing the American public promptly and accurately and completely is not among the most important events , yes, I agree. As for the attempts to cast the blame on the victim, the failure to apologize, and the refusal to acknowledge his responsibility for four days... I guess it is up to each of us to determine if we think that is acceptable behavior for the Vice President of the United States.
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 16, 2006 16:43:33 GMT -5
Can I summarize? Everyone acknowledges that Cheney was responsible for what happened in the shooting. Everyone acknowledges that the most important post-events were handled properly: getting medical attention, notifying the local sheriff, notifying Whittington's spouse. And everyone (except Cheney) acknowledges that notification of the press was bungled. If anyone disagrees with any of this, speak up. Other than the implication that informing the American public promptly and accurately and completely is not among the most important events , yes, I agree. As for the attempts to cast the blame on the victim, the failure to apologize, and the refusal to acknowledge his responsibility for four days... I guess it is up to each of us to determine if we think that is acceptable behavior for the Vice President of the United States. How were you hurt by not reading about this in the Sunday times? How as anyone damaged by having to wait to see the [objective] reporter Dana Milbank dress up in a hunting outfit on MSNBC?
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burghoya
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Post by burghoya on Feb 17, 2006 1:45:08 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that on a Sat. evening, out "hunting"; -- in a CAR! -- maybe the Veep and pals might have "relaxed" with a shot or two (booze, not gunshots)? maybe that is another reason he didn't report this until the next day? Did anyone do a breathalyzer on Chaney? In my hood we call this a driveby... or a typical Saturday night. right. Note to self: If you become vice president, you can shoot your friend and all charges will be dropped. Whelp, I've got to go hit the campaign trail...
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kchoya
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Post by kchoya on Feb 17, 2006 11:09:11 GMT -5
Does anyone else think that on a Sat. evening, out "hunting"; -- in a CAR! -- maybe the Veep and pals might have "relaxed" with a shot or two (booze, not gunshots)? maybe that is another reason he didn't report this until the next day? Did anyone do a breathalyzer on Chaney? In my hood we call this a driveby... or a typical Saturday night. right. Note to self: If you become vice president, you can shoot your friend and all charges will be dropped. Whelp, I've got to go hit the campaign trail... There is such a thing as an accident. Not all shootings result in charges. If this was joe blow from zapata, texas, would you be calling for criminal charges? (and there have to be charges filed before they are "dropped")
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