TigerHoya
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Post by TigerHoya on Feb 9, 2006 19:29:52 GMT -5
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 10, 2006 13:26:33 GMT -5
Another Catholic university abandoning its principles. It's not freedom of speech or academic freedom, it's a Catholic institution agreeing to having a performance which glorifies what the institution is supposed to adhor to proceed (a la Georgetown). Is there nowhere a Catholic can send his/her children where a Catholic atmosphere is maintained?
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SoCalHoya
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Post by SoCalHoya on Feb 10, 2006 14:16:07 GMT -5
With no disrespect easyed, I believe there is such a place. It's called parochial school and it normally occurs K-12! No, seriously, though they may behave childishly at times, they are not "children" even if they will always be "your children." They are young adults, whether we like to admit it or not. The very last thing I would like is for GU to treat its students like BYU treats its own. Many of these shocking plays like the Vagina Monologues fail to get much attendance or attention. By protesting, one only artificially increases their allure and legitimacy.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 10, 2006 16:55:02 GMT -5
SoCal - I have a hard time determining what a Catholic university is, as contrasted with one that is not Catholic. It seems to me that the distinguishing factor is that a Catholic one should provide a Catholic atmosphere, reflected in how it operates. There are a thousand universities that are not Catholic which are available, so if one wants to have the "freedom" to have performances that are not in agreement with Catholic values, then go for it at that university. Harvard started out as a Christian university but changed its direction and at least it is now honest with itself and does not now claim any Christian association. In your lifetime Georgetown will do the same and disassociate itself from its Catholic label. How disturbing to those of us who had the priviledge of attending Georgetown when it was different and the effect it has had on our lives since then. I do not expect you to be able to relate to this since you have not experienced it.
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SoCalHoya
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Post by SoCalHoya on Feb 14, 2006 20:47:16 GMT -5
The problem here is I don't know exactly what you mean by a "Catholic atmosphere." Do you mean one of reverence to our Lord and the Church? Promotion of charity and forgiveness? Missionary work? Catechism?
Just because there are thousands of non-Catholic universities does not mean that there cannot be Catholic Universities that have found different ways of approaching Catholicism. I do not believe Georgetown is any less "Catholic" because it tolerates "non-Catholic" or even "anti-Catholic" speakers/debates/performances. I put these things in quotes because they mean different things to different people. I was always told that the best way to understand, maintain and strengthen your faith is to challenge it and allow it to be challenged. I was then and still am a very devoted Catholic. I do not fear the opinions/art of others being presented at Georgetown, even if they present contrasting views to the some of the teachings of our Catholic faith. I think we are strong enough as a university and a faith to handle it.
After all, didn't Scalia give a speech once saying he felt the Church was wrong (or the Pope was wrong) because it opposes the death penalty? At the very least, allowing a forum for debate can do much to show that we are both a Catholic and a catholic university.
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Post by Frank Black on Feb 14, 2006 21:13:21 GMT -5
This is an exceedingly tough call. Does being a Catholic school mean you do not allow classes or professors that aren't on board with the catechism? Of course not. Does it mean you teach how to perform abortions at the university hospital? Of course not. There is a line somewhere between these extremes, and I'm not sure where it is, that satisfies the Catholic imperative toward inquiry without degrading the moral principles upon which the Church has steadied itself for 2000 years.
My own feeling is that the Vagina Monologues is so antithetical to anything resembling Catholic values that it has no place on a Catholic campus. You will never see anybody lining up outside Leavey to revere the Blessed Mother, but they will line up around the block to hear women blather on about satisfying their base sexual urges. Things are amiss.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 14, 2006 23:15:43 GMT -5
I'm guessing this issue picks up steam after Cardinal McCarrick's presumed retirement next year. Georgetown has enjoyed a unusual hands-off relationship with the Archdiocese over the years and that may or may not fly with the Vatican's choice to succeed him.
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Feb 15, 2006 0:15:32 GMT -5
DFW,
Please enlighten me if I am off-base but since when does GU's relationship with the Vatican or its supposed "fidelity," or lack thereof, in adhering to Church teachings correlate to its relationship to whoever happens to sit in the Archdiocesan episcopate of the District of Columbia!! I'm sure there's some historical precedent of which you will inform the board but I tend to concur with SoCal, and I suspect the large majority of Jesuits on and off-campus, who would argue that the dissemination of dissenting and even, God forbid, "heretical" points of view on campus would allow for mature and reasoned reflection of what a truly Catholic university constitutes in terms of weighing academic freedom balanced against engagement with and objection to secular notions of truth and "empowerment" of a group that has historically been marginalized and neglected (women), especially by and in the Church.
Bottom line: Georgetown is no longer in the business of propagating the Baltimore Catechism as it was when it graduated easyed the 1950s. It is expressly missioned to educate discerning Catholics and other peoples of faith (or no faith at all) to engage with the world in all of its errors and perspectives (whether said world perspectives maintain fidelity to Church teachings or not). From this GU graduate's perspective, that's why God gave us free will and reason (aided by Jesuitical training and discipline, of course!).....
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Cambridge
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Post by Cambridge on Feb 15, 2006 2:08:13 GMT -5
DFW, Please enlighten me if I am off-base but since when does GU's relationship with the Vatican or its supposed "fidelity," or lack thereof, in adhering to Church teachings correlate to its relationship to whoever happens to sit in the Archdiocesan episcopate of the District of Columbia!! I'm sure there's some historical precedent of which you will inform the board but I tend to concur with SoCal, and I suspect the large majority of Jesuits on and off-campus, who would argue that the dissemination of dissenting and even, God forbid, "heretical" points of view on campus would allow for mature and reasoned reflection of what a truly Catholic university constitutes in terms of weighing academic freedom balanced against engagement with and objection to secular notions of truth and "empowerment" of a group that has historically been marginalized and neglected (women), especially by and in the Church. Bottom line: Georgetown is no longer in the business of propagating the Baltimore Catechism as it was when it graduated easyed the 1950s. It is expressly missioned to educate discerning Catholics and other peoples of faith (or no faith at all) to engage with the world in all of its errors and perspectives (whether said world perspectives maintain fidelity to Church teachings or not). From this GU graduate's perspective, that's why God gave us free will and reason (aided by Jesuitical training and discipline, of course!)..... Huzzah!
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 15, 2006 6:55:19 GMT -5
WBH--I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. It was neither a issue of dogma nor an endorsement of archdiocesan input in Jesuit activities, only that as a new archbishop is selected, the Vatican may see this as an opportunity to redefine the relationship.
Hope that helps.
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Feb 15, 2006 7:02:33 GMT -5
I may have indeed misinterpreted and probably didn't frame the question well so let me try again---
From a governance or "reporting" standpoint, what's the relationship between the President and Board of Directors of GU and the Archbishop of the Diocese of Washington, DC?!? I understand that there's an inherently "political" nature to these relationships (both sides no doubt harbor a desire to "play nice") but how should decisions made by the former two parties relate in any way to potential "jurisdictional" matters that the latter may "oversee." I'm fascinated to learn more about the history and "jurisprudence" of the relationship......
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Post by Frank Black on Feb 15, 2006 9:49:44 GMT -5
DFW, Bottom line: Georgetown is no longer in the business of propagating the Baltimore Catechism as it was when it graduated easyed the 1950s. It is expressly missioned to educate discerning Catholics and other peoples of faith (or no faith at all) to engage with the world in all of its errors and perspectives (whether said world perspectives maintain fidelity to Church teachings or not). From this GU graduate's perspective, that's why God gave us free will and reason (aided by Jesuitical training and discipline, of course!)..... Ergo, Georgetown = Duke/Harvard/Cal-Berkeley. Re-read what you wrote and describe to me how Georgetown's mission differs from any of the schools I've mentioned. You have stripped the institution of its Catholic identity. Fun while it lasted, though.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 15, 2006 13:18:10 GMT -5
If we want a University where no views other than Catholic dogma are presented, what would we have? Would we still be teaching the world is flat and threatening to burn Galileo at the Stake if he spoke out? Would we be teaching "intelligent design"? Would we be sending search parties out to find Noah's ark? Would we be suppressing accounts of child molestation and rape by Priests and then sending them to new parishes/dioceses/universities so they can do it again?
Has anyone who has posted against the villany of the Vagina Monologues actually seen the play?
Why should Catholics be afraid of letting students learn what others think, feel, believe? How can disparate groups come to understand one another if no communication is allowed?
And by the way, while these "children" are being coddled and protected while away at college, are we also eliminating cable TV, newspapers, the internet? Are we making certain subjects taboo so they are far more appealing? Like, say, Adam and Eve and the apple? That didn't turn out too well.
Since when should a University, Catholic or otherwise, be afraid of ideas? And afraid of allowing students to become aware of the realities of the world?
If GU students are to go out into the world and contribute and make a difference, wouldn't they have a better chance of so doing if they understand what the world really is? What other people think and believe? What issues and temptations they are dealing with?
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 15, 2006 13:36:23 GMT -5
I don't understand the line of thinking above--surely you're not suggesting it's a zero-sum game between ideas and Catholic education.
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Post by hilltopper2000 on Feb 15, 2006 13:50:43 GMT -5
To answer Frank Black's question, I don't think GU is that much different from other top universities. But that does not mean it still can't be Catholic. My ideal for a Catholic university would be one that permits free expression and scholarship without regard to Church teaching. Similarly, all hiring and admission of students should be free from religious bias. What would separate it from its non-Catholic peers would be an emphasis on studying the Catholic religion and the history of the Church -- possibly offering majors and PhD's in these areas -- and putting an emphasis in religious study in general. I think it would make sense to have a school of Catholic studies, much like SFS, which had faculty in various departments, government, history, theology, philosphy, med school, law school, etc. It should also house on campus members of the Catholic clergy to serve as professors and mentors to students. And it should actively encourage faith among its students by supporting a robust campus ministry and, indeed, placing a particular emphasis on the Catholic religion by holding frequent masses at a central location. I would throw in that my Catholic university would encourage serve to others, but I suppose Duke and Berkeley probably do that too. I guess my point is that Georgetown can be a robust Catholic institution without engaging in censorship or stifling divergent viewpoints.
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Post by Frank Black on Feb 15, 2006 14:31:42 GMT -5
If we want a University where no views other than Catholic dogma are presented, what would we have? Would we still be teaching the world is flat and threatening to burn Galileo at the Stake if he spoke out? Would we be teaching "intelligent design"? Would we be sending search parties out to find Noah's ark? Would we be suppressing accounts of child molestation and rape by Priests and then sending them to new parishes/dioceses/universities so they can do it again? Has anyone who has posted against the villany of the Vagina Monologues actually seen the play? Why should Catholics be afraid of letting students learn what others think, feel, believe? How can disparate groups come to understand one another if no communication is allowed? And by the way, while these "children" are being coddled and protected while away at college, are we also eliminating cable TV, newspapers, the internet? Are we making certain subjects taboo so they are far more appealing? Like, say, Adam and Eve and the apple? That didn't turn out too well. Since when should a University, Catholic or otherwise, be afraid of ideas? And afraid of allowing students to become aware of the realities of the world? If GU students are to go out into the world and contribute and make a difference, wouldn't they have a better chance of so doing if they understand what the world really is? What other people think and believe? What issues and temptations they are dealing with? Your post pretty much nails the problem as I see it on the head. In the above you have shown 1) an inflammatory ignorance of Catholic theology and history embarrassing for someone who presumably attended Georgetown, 2) an inexplicable aversion to actually reading my posts, and 3) the hysterical zero-sum argumentation perfected on Fox News. To wit, it was an argument unbecoming someone allegedly trained by Jesuits. I will pass it off as a momentary reaction rather than an actual thoughtful post. I suggest picking up "Triumph" by Harry Crocker or the four (soon to be five) volume History of Christendom by Warren Carroll and trying again. It will give you a new respect for what Catholicism is about.
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SirSaxa
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Post by SirSaxa on Feb 15, 2006 14:49:56 GMT -5
I don't understand the line of thinking above--surely you're not suggesting it's a zero-sum game between ideas and Catholic education. I apologize if I did not make my views clear. Simply stated, it is this: No one in a catholic - or other - university should be afraid to present ideas and viewpoints. Presenting and endorsing are two different concepts. If no differing views are ever presented, how can one possibly understand others? I think a Catholic University should make Catholic theology available to students, but it should not be mandatory. The most effective way to demonstrate catholic values (IMHO) is by providing a catholic perspective on events, beliefs, media -- not by precluding students from being aware of them. That sounds more like China controlling the internet and media. What are we going to do next? Start taking books out of the library? I am adamantly opposed to the concept of suppressing different points of views and beliefs for religious reasons. The Galileo example is a dated but relevant one. The church's understanding at the time did not allow for the possibility that the earth -- as created in 7 days by God -- was not the center of the universe. If real science and new viewpoints are not allowed, what is the point of having a university? Rather than sheltering students, we should encourage them to see and learn as much as possible. Christ didn't condemn Mary Magdalene, he embraced her. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and "love thy neighbor as thyself" resonate with me. If a student group wants to present the Vagina Monologues... so what. If a professor wants to include Henry James and Anais Nin in a literature class... shouldn't he be allowed to?
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SFHoya99
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Post by SFHoya99 on Feb 17, 2006 18:14:20 GMT -5
So, all the frosh at ND are required to see the Vagina Monologues, right? I mean...
Oh, wait.
I'm always amazed at the indignation that people have over other people's independent choices. Morality/Religion is a personal thing and this is an optional thing, put on by people who want to do it. Why doesn't every just worry about their own sin before slamming down on someone for doing a chick play?
Oh, no! My 20 year old daughter may be influenced by a two hour play! Arrrgh! If that's true, you're were a pretty crappy parent.
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EasyEd
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Post by EasyEd on Feb 18, 2006 10:36:54 GMT -5
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Feb 19, 2006 10:04:56 GMT -5
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