Catholicism & Georgetown

[joehoya07]

Relativism at its finest. I quote 'Ex Corde Ecclesiae', Pope John Paul II's apostolic constitution on Catholic universities: "It is the honour and responsibility of a Catholic University to consecrate itself without reserve to the cause of truth...The basic mission of a University is a continuous quest for truth through its research, and the preservation and communication of knowledge for the good of society."

"Exploration" and "learning how to think for one's self" are noble pursuits. However, they are not the highest end of a university. The search means nothing if we are not committed to the truth. To some extent, I can understand the relativism at the secular, practically atheistic Ivies. But Georgetown is a Catholic institution. Our religion was founded by Christ Himself, who said "I am the Truth." Relativism has absolutely no place at Georgetown.

[SirSaxa]

joehoya07 said:

Pope John Paul II's apostolic constitution on Catholic universities: "
The basic mission of a University is a continuous quest for truth ...."

And what does Quest mean anyway? Is that a search? a journey? Could one say it involves "exploration"?

Now you are suggesting "a quest for truth", vs. "imparting the truth".
A significant change that you seem to be trying to pass off as the same thing. So who is it who is actually committed to "the truth"?

[nychoya3]

Let's talk realistically. Where is the constituency for these changes? I take it that joehoya is in the class of 2007, so he knows full well what Georgetown is now. There is a KOC chapter. The Academy still publishes (I think.) But not only is Georgetown a post-enlightenment University (thank god), it's pretty damn close to "8th Ivy" thing you so deplore. Decades of students have graduated from a Georgetown that's a catholic as it is right now - which is to say not very. Many are catholic, but many are not, and even those that are overwhelmingly love Georgetown for what it is today.

For all this talk from joehoya about imparting truth, I still have no idea what he's talking about. You're against relativism. I get it. But design my syllabus for me. Is there room between reading Plato and Aquinas for spirited discussions on the nature of international relations? When I turned in my paper in "Problem of God" arguing for the primacy of secular humanism philosophy would an 'F' be sufficient, or should I be expelled? Do we close the biology department, apostates that they are? I presume Father Drinan is no longer welcome. What a bleak, bleak place to go to school, where students are passive absorbers of truth as it is understood by catholic theology. Conservatism is fine, but this is a conservatism that's afraid to confront the arguments of the other side.

DFW's suggestion is fine by me so long as it's in addition to what Georgetown is and can be as an institution devoted to modernism and excellence.

[reformation]

DFW, congrats on a practical and meaningful proposal!

Maybe others will follow suit rather than venting randomly with no real usable ideas.

[Cambridge]

sfhoya99 said:

Joe,

Couple of thoughts:

While I understand entirely why the Church would oppose such funding, I can also see O'Donovan's point of view. I think a lot of our difference in opinion stems from my second point below, which seems to be a difference of opinion about how you educate.

I certainly believe there are absolute rights and wrongs and a prime reason I went to Georgetown was the focus on morals and ethics. I wanted to study ethics, philosophy and theology, and was afraid that as a business major at another University, I would never get the chance. I just don't think there is value in dictation of those things.

What value is there in someone reaching the right conclusion for the wrong things? There is some, I suppose, but attempting to eliminate opposing points of view is both practically and philosophically wrong. In the former case, attempting to eradicate dissenting opinions is impossible, and the attempts to hide other points of view tends to cause people to distrust your own. On the philosophical front, you are not creating a moral person if you are not testing them; you are not creating a moral person if you are merely dictating what they should write on their papers. Religion and Ethics and Morals are highly personal items. People must come to their own philosophy themselves for it to have any staying power (or, in my mind, mean anything at all).

The crucifix -- no arguments there, but again, in my years it was a constant issue. Just can't get that worked up over it. Then again, symbols have rarely carried much weight with me. Crucifix or no in the classroom doesn't alter my religious beliefs.

As for the final point, you need to check yourself. The comment: "And while our more "progressive" students are feeding their own egos by yelling really really loud about how much they love the poor and disadvantaged..."

Wow. Thanks for politicizing the issue. I love how you blanket every "progressive" student as an egomaniac who really doesn't care but just wants to feed their own ego. Every single one. Excellent. Way to go. Actions do speak louder than words, and I'm willing to bet those students who camped out in protest of fair wages during my four years did most community service work than those who protested crosses in classrooms.

Maybe I did the same when I commented on the crosses in the classrooms; but I'm well aware that some of those folks do other things that help folks. Still, I find it hard to rally behind such an issue.

But I find your attitude pathetic. Like the rest of this country, you are ready to insult and blanket anyone because they don't agree with your political views. Why not debate individuals honestly? Just like the guy on the other thread who called all Democrats racist. Just quality.

Amen SF. Where is faith if it is not tested? Where does it come from if it is not challenged? Does it even exist if it is never threatened? I don't think Jesus would take too kindly to teaching by dictation...he seemed more of a process-interaction kinda guy.

[Cambridge]

joehoya07 said:

During his tenure, he funded a pro-abortion group and was subsequently called to the Vatican and reprimanded. Plus, he allowed crucifixes to be taken down from the classrooms. Those are the two major ones that come to mind.

Joe - I'm not sure I understand. When did thoughts and ideas become so threatening to the Catholic church? Personally, I believe my faith and my church is strong enough to deal with dissent and difference of opinion...and I would personally be very disappointed if it ever ran from an intellectual discourse on its tenets by banishing differing opinions from its grounds.

[Frank Black]

This is a great discussion, I'm sorry I stumbled upon it so late. I think DFW's proposal is a phenomenal one. A well-endowed, world class center for Catholic teaching and theology would act as a draw for the best and brightest Catholics without alienating non-Catholics who still wish to get a top-notch education in the sciences or international relations or whatever else. It is the grand compromise.
As a Catholic, I desperately want Georgetown to proclaim its religious identity with pride. I DON'T want to be an Ivy or Duke or some school such as these that long since shook off their Christian identies as though they were an embarrassment. But neither do I want to be a seminary or the equivalent of some madrassa with robots memorizing the Catechism. We are Catholics, we don't fear dissent. No religious figure or philosophical or popular fad has destroyed or could hope to destroy the ultimate truth that the Church has proclaimed for 2000 years. We need not fear debate, we should welcome it always. Not because our parents told us what was true but because our arguments are best. Georgetown is uniquely placed to fulfill this mission. But ultimately the decision of whether to partake in the Catholic message must be left up to the individual, and that means that nonbelievers or people of other faiths should feel as welcome as I expect they do today. We ought to be able to promote our Catholicism without diminishing our mission to educate all people, Catholic and non-Catholic alike.