Campus Expansion/Building

[RBHoya]

Just throwing this out there very randomly to see if anyone has any interesting ideas...

How can we make Georgetown a better campus? I know I personally am very excited about the new Business School building, even though it's probably going to be completed a few months too late for me to have class in it. It looks great in all the renderings. Also, the completion of the MSF is exciting, and I'm eager to finally see what the new Davis building will be like.

However, I'm getting the sense that campus is a little crowded. There's really not very much grass space at all. I always hear people talk about other schools having beautiful campuses, and while Georgetown has some very nice architecture, I think it might be nice if there were more room... somewhere.

Is there any land nearby the University could acquire for it's own use? And what about future construction projects--where will they go? After Lot T goes to the Biz building, what blank space will there be to build upon?

I'm curious to know whether any of you Hoyatalkers have any ideas as to what campus may look like in the future. Can we expand campus in any way? Can we acquire land anywhere? Can we renovate (or knockdown and build upon) any of our existing buildings?

I'm sure at least some of you have thought of how you'd make campus itself better, and I'm curious to know your ideas.

[StPetersburgHoya (Inactive)]

Two words: imminent domain.

It opens up a lot of land and it keeps the neighbors quiet.

I asked about this during my interview when I applied to Georgetown and the alumnus I interviewed with had some problems answering it - he ultimately refrenced how close it was to the National Mall and the C+O running trails - which are all nice but not that close to campus.

[Jack]

This issue has been discussed at great length previously here, and I will not attempt to replicate the entire history, but the basic answer is that there are very few options for expansion or land acquisition that are politically workable. Eminent domain, if I remember anything from my Con Law and Property courses, is not a realistic idea- it requires some government to do the work for the university to acquire land that is seen as serving some public good, and would undoubtedly be met with massive resistance from the neighborhood, so forget about it. Although there do not seem to be any good solutions to the space crunch now, the history of the university is littered with lost opportunities to do the same:

-The Wormley School is the most recent example. GU finally sold the building after several years of attempting to find a use for it and meeting opposition at every corner. It would have been a nice base for something like the Public Policy school, or another graduate program.

-The Mt. Vernon campus is probably the most egregious example of mismanagement. When the former Mt. Vernon College closed, Georgetown had the right to buy the property at a very reasonable price but did not execute on the deal. GW swooped in and bought the land and now has a thriving residential campus and sprawling athletic and intramural fields within a 10 minute shuttle ride of GU.

-The Cloisters and Visitation are more complicated historical scenarios and I cannot recall all the details, but there were times during GU's history when much of that adjacent property could have been acquired by the university or actually belonged to the university.

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

Jack hit the nail on the head. The Mt. Vernon blunder, aside from the continuing mismanagement of the Medical Center situation, was Leo's second biggest mistake. Ironically, DeGioia supposedly pushed to buy the land but was overruled?!

I believe there were several opportunities to acquire Visitation and the Cloisters land--the latest in the 70s when Visitation was in far worse financial straits. Tim Healy supposedly said, "we don't need the land," and that was the end of that since Visitation has recovered nicely and has a very active, vigilant and well-heeled alumni base. I've floated the idea of a land swap where GU buys property in Rockville or Vienna somewhere and offers a deal to GV to relocate (a la what Gtown Prep and other SJ high schools have done in moving to the burbs). But that idea seems less and less feasible/amenable to GV people as time goes on.

The Jesuits at GU haven't had the best financial/real estate management record. Others with a better historical grounding of events at GU can comment further....

[Guest]

Mt. Vernon: Quite simply, one of the single worst decisions of the last 100 years at Georgetown.

irascibleprofessor.com/comments-3-26-01.htm

[TrueHoyaBlue]

I'd echo what Jack and WBH said in terms of historical background. In terms of green space on campus though, I disagree with those who argue that G'town has lost green space in the last few years. The last generally-used green space lost was the old Harbin recreational field, which was subsumed by the Harbin athletic field (now MSF) shortly before I arrived on campus in the late 90s.


Since then,

-Lot T replaced the baseball field, which, while beautiful, was used by about 20 student-athletes, and not more than a handful of fans.

-The Performing Arts center replaced about 10 square feet of lawn, as well as a grove of trees next to the old Ryan Administration building, not much in the way of green space.

- The Alumni Memorial Park on N Street turned a vacant lot into added green space for the university, though I wish they would add a few more benches to make it a little more student-friendly.

- The Southwest Quad created a very significant increase in green space, both in terms of the quad itself, and the lawn and slope just west of the new Jesuit Residence. It also created small new lawns on the west side of Village C, where concrete had previously run right to the edge of the building.

- Last Summer's renovation of New South turned the old loading dock space into a new courtyard with both picnic tables and (albeit a small amount) some additional lawn space.


The plans for the new MSB building (and whenever it is funded, the new Science building) call for the creation of another quad (either like the SWQ, or more of a sloping lawn, depending on the plans), which should create more useable green space, and the plan for the MSB building should also increase access to the Leavey Esplanade.


This campus has been landlocked for a long time, and there are definitely a number of bad decisions that have been made in the past, but I think that recent construction and renovation projects have moved in a direction of trying to maximize the available green space on a constricted campus, and to add to that where possible.

[SoCalHoya]

I agree with TrueHoyaBlue. I think GU has done an admirable job of adding greenspace wherever it can. We are definitely landlocked, and we can only learn to maximize what we do have.

I also think it would be a good idea to share GV's space in the future, if a business deal can be worked out. I can understand why a school like GV would want to maintain its independence, though. We're definitely a juggernaut compared to them, albeit an underfunded one.

[DFW HOYA]

The real problem is that if Georgetown wants any sort of meaningful campus expansion, it won't come from Visitation or Prep or some three acre parcel in Montgomery County. The Georgetown of the 21st century cannot meet its future needs with its present footprint without moving significant residential or academic facilities off campus.

The open question is when to make a commitment to a new satellite campus that is large enough to meet these future needs. The problem for the cash-strapped University is that it would be, by necessity, at a considerable distance from the metropolitan Washington DC area.

[TrueHoyaBlue]

I suppose at 25 or so students, the new campus in Qatar doesn't quite count...

[njhoya]

Here's a question. I've read in many places that the University is cash strapped. I also read a report that listed the endowments of a number of universities. Princeton was #1 or #2 with $11.2 billion. Gtwn was way down the list-if I remeber correctly I think the number was $100 or $200 million. Does anyone know why the endowment is so low comparatively speaking and why the University is so cash strapped? It's surprising to me given all the successful, politically connected people that have graduated from here.

[Deleted]

Some crazy ideas I've had in past threads. I'm just cutting-and-pasting from them, so sorry if these don't all flow together:

What if instead of worrying so much about getting McD renovated and the space considerations such a project would bring, we turn McD into a student gym, weight room, offices, all of that... and instead renovate Yates? Its a piece of garbage anyway, there's PLENTY of room to dig down and make a many thousand seat arena, plus its next to the pool, so it might be a nice consolidation of resources... any thoughts? What about the arena on the law campus?

I say leave the pool where it is, renovate the rest of Yates. Take out that atrium entrance space, all the offices, all the locker rooms, ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING but leave the pool. There would be PLENTY of space in the remaining shell to not only build a 7-10,000 seat arena, but state-of-the-art weight, locker, film and study rooms for our student athletes.

I figure the way Yates is constructed (that west side facing the park is pure concrete, nothing too complicated) the renovation would actually be a lot easier.

Then gut McD SOMEWHAT to make the new student athletic center. Between the "new Yates" and the MSF, you could easily accomodate the Athletic Department and all the offices needed by the teams (i.e. sports like lax, soccer, football, field hockey could be in MSF, everything else in Yates or something like that). When all those are moved, McD can be slightly renovated to provide the four of five indoor hoops courts Yates provides, plus a tennis court or two, an indoor track, a MUCH better weight and exercise room, exercise studios, all that crap.

Another wild and crazy plan:

Know how we have all that underground parking over at the SW Quad now? Well why not replicate that over on the north side of campus? Know that stupid parking lot that the old Darnall cafeteria looked out onto? Gone.

Why don't we build a student activities building there? I'm talking from where it starts near resevoir all the way back to that building between the lot and Leavy. Say, four or five stories, more rooms for student activities groups, meeting spaces, bowling alleys, a signature restaurant or two, student health club (we're talking two stories, state of the art... could even outsource it to Golds or Wash. Sports Clubs or something), mini-movie theatre, Georgetown University Museum, move Hoyas over there freeing up the OLD Hoyas to become the faculty club... the possibilities are endless.

And the parking spots you'd lose? Move them underground... you'd only need to dig a story or two down to replace those 100 or so spots.

The new pub and signature restaurant would be on the ground floor, along with the "Strike! Georgetown" bowling alley. Second floor could be all that other stuff I mentioned, with the health club on the third and fourth (its gonna be huuuuuuuuge). The mini-movie theatre (work out a deal with Landmark or some other indy flim house?) could have the entrance on the second, taking up the third and fourth floors at one end of the building - the health club getting the rest of those two floors (we're talking weights, cardio, studios, Nautiluseses, all that... with big glass windows to look out on Resevoir, the street between the student center and Darnall, the hospital, whatever.

[Deleted]

And for Nevada... turn the top of Yates into a world-class track facility!!

Also, don't forget that way in the future we'll probably have the new science center opposite the biz school building on Lot T.

Are there new renderings of the biz school building? Or just those old ones from The Hoya a year or two ago?

[Jack]

njhoya said:

Here's a question. I've read in many places that the University is cash strapped. I also read a report that listed the endowments of a number of universities. Princeton was #1 or #2 with $11.2 billion. Gtwn was way down the list-if I remeber correctly I think the number was $100 or $200 million. Does anyone know why the endowment is so low comparatively speaking and why the University is so cash strapped? It's surprising to me given all the successful, politically connected people that have graduated from here.

The causes for the low endowment are really more than I feel like going into today, but the actual number is more like $700 million.

[njhoya]

Jack, if and when you have a chance and are in the mood, I'd be curious to know. As I said with it being such a prestigious place where so many successful people have come from, it surprised me when I saw the numbers (thanks for the correction)

[WilsonBlvdHoya]

NJ, Jack can correct me on the rankings but GU is around #68-78 in the endowment rankings (anywhere in the high $600M-low$700M) range. Virtually all of GU's principal admissions competitors have endowments among the top 25 in the country....

[FormerHoya]

njhoya said:

Jack, if and when you have a chance and are in the mood, I'd be curious to know. As I said with it being such a prestigious place where so many successful people have come from, it surprised me when I saw the numbers (thanks for the correction)

Notice the word under Jack's avatar. That word isn't there for nothing. Also, note that discussing this makes Jack even crankier.

Give him beer, it might help.

[hilltopper2000]

What is particularly upsetting about this subject is that GU's ranking has dropped from the 50s in the mid-90s into the 70s in the mid-2000s, while simultaneously we've raised more money than almost all of the schools that passed us by. The management of the endowment has been attrocious. The university almost entirely missed out on the 1990s stock market boom, but we got hit by the bust. Every year for the last decade we've been significantly below the average for college endowment returns, published in the Chronicle. If anyone has some free time, pull the back issues and you can chart the ineptitude. Hopefully Larry Kochard can turn that ship around.

[hoya01]

Who is Larry Kochard?

[hilltopper2000]

The new Chief Investment Officer.

[hilltopper2000]

Correction: The first and only CIO in GU's history!