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Post by reformation on Aug 18, 2005 10:42:17 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure the admissions dept does give some degree of favoritism to students from certain high schools. My sense is that both elite private and public high school students get a boost vs students from "average schools" .
I think a more interesting question is whether these admissions decisions are "correct", i.e., how well do students from different high schools fare at GU. I would strongly recommend that the admissions dept should do a study to see whether this form of admissions bias is warranted.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Aug 18, 2005 10:57:34 GMT -5
I don't want to get in trouble for saying too much here, but I understand reformation's concerns. I agree that it might be useful to see which types of students are performing the best in the classroom at Georgetown, but I also believe that it is not the only valid criteria for selecting a class.
As much as I know that bin's fantasy of Exeter kids having it harder at the top colleges is deluded, I also have seen that schools like Exeter do a fantastic job of recruiting and educating a much more diverse group than some people are prepared to realize. Exeter certainly has its share of legacies and rich kids, but it also manages to find remarkably mature and bright kids from all over the world and all kinds of family and ethnic backgrounds and give them tremendous financial aid and opportunity that they would not necessarily receive in Compton or in Kansas.
In the end, GU benefits from admitting students at a higher rate from such schools for any number of reasons. Those schools serve as one-stop shopping for academic elites, athletes, legacies, development cases, and diverse students, all of whom have received the best preparation available. It would be foolish to bring in exclusively students who were fortunate enough or precocious enough to have been afforded that fantastic opportunity, but it would also be silly to ignore them or insist that students from elite high schools be admitted at the same rate as everyone else.
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Post by WilsonBlvdHoya on Aug 18, 2005 11:11:04 GMT -5
WBH- Duke and Penn both beat GU more often than not, but it is an area where real competition exists, as opposed to Harvard on one extreme and BC on another, where this is significant crossover in the applicant pool but very little in the way of competition for common admits. Duke is able to offer some merit scholarships and clearly enjoys the advantage of its Top 5 US News ranking, but in the end 30-40% of common admits still choose GU. Penn's biggest advantage is with Wharton, where they win 90% of the time. If you took out that group it would be much closer to 50/50. The places where the competition is typically the closest have been Notre Dame, UVA, Berkeley, and Cornell. Some years GU wins more, some years the appeal of homogeneity, low in-state tuition, or easy access to the Finger Lakes wins out. In reality, students who are looking at Georgetown and those schools are probably looking for very different things, so there is not much that can be done to persuade them one way or the other. Jack--Interesting and thx for sharing. No way Berkeley is an overlap 20 yrs. ago. Ditto, to a lesser extent, for Cornell and Penn. The Wharton advantage is huge for Penn; no disrespect intended to GU Bus. School.....
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Post by reformation on Aug 18, 2005 11:54:43 GMT -5
Jack, the reasoning behind you laid out re: recruiting kids from elite schools definitely makes sense in theory. It would still be interesting to see how it pans out in practice-I also understand that more than purely academic factors may have to be taken into account for such a review. Putting these type of beliefs to the test would only be a good thing, I think.
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Jack
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Post by Jack on Aug 18, 2005 12:10:56 GMT -5
I don't disagree reformation. I would love the chance to get my hands on that kind of data.
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Post by fsohoya on Aug 18, 2005 13:32:06 GMT -5
I think you'll find this of interest. Caroline Hoxby, a Harvard economist, did a study last year of applicants' "revealed preferences" of colleges that ranks schools based on where common admits chose to go. The link below takes you to a copy of the ranking (from 2004). Unfortunately, the full report can only be downloaded from the National Bureau of Education Research (NBER). GU finished 16th behind schools like Harvard and Stanford but beat out Duke and schools like Northwestern, UVa and Berkely. talk.collegeconfidential.com/archive/index.php/t-626.html
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 18, 2005 19:37:07 GMT -5
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Gold Hoya
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Post by Gold Hoya on Aug 19, 2005 11:12:33 GMT -5
the appeal of homogeneity That's priceless!
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SoCalHoya
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Post by SoCalHoya on Aug 19, 2005 13:26:03 GMT -5
the appeal of homogeneity That's priceless!Not only is that priceless, it's quite true. Many of the ND alumni I've talked to were really sheltered and wanted to keep it that way.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Aug 19, 2005 19:13:19 GMT -5
I'm really astounded that any prospective student or ranking system would place Duke ahead of Georgetown. In my experience, our reputation is way better than theirs. Of course I went to a Jesuit high school in the Northeast, but I always thought Duke was overrated due to Dick Vitale's obsession with the "smart kids" that are in the student section at Cameron. One of my good friends at GU was accepted at Duke, and one of the GAAP kids I had in my group this spring said she was accepted at Duke hated it upon visiting. I just can't believe that particular institution consistently beats us for students.
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 19, 2005 20:11:47 GMT -5
I just can't believe that particular institution consistently beats us for students. Here are five potential groups of students for whom Duke can edge out Georgetown for: 1. Science students. Duke's engineering and science programs are considerably ahead. Duke opens a $115 million science building next year. Georgetown has Reiss. 2. Artsy students. How many top 25 schools have a "design your own major" program? 3. Kids from the Southeast. Both schools have an overabundance of Jersey kids (aka "Univ. of New Jersey at Durham") but two of Duke's two biggest states for students are North Carolina and Florida. Georgetown's numbers south of the Beltway are considerably less. 4. Socially-oriented kids. Duke has a considerable Greek life and there is a real investment in a four year residential program (most in true quadrangle facilities) that GU does not have. And if the Duke student doesn't like the Gothic look, they can live on its East Campus, which is designed like UVa. 5. Kids who need financial aid. Duke has a lot more aid and is one of the few private Top 25 schools to use merit aid to win the top prospects. Here are five potential groups of students for whom Georgetown can edge out Duke for: 1. Political science students. Policy wonks (and wonkettes) in training want to be where the action is. 2. Business students. Duke has no undergrad business program. 3. Kids from parochial high schools. Roughly 4% of Duke students come from parochial high schools versus probably a quarter at Georgetown and probably 60% at ND. 4. New England students. Students from Boston and Hartford are more likely to go to Dc than continue to NC. 5. Kids who apply regular decision. Duke fills about a third of its class "early decision" (binding commitment to go there if accepted) making it very tough to get in otherwise. 36% of Dukies get accepted early, vs. only 21% in April. Converesely, Georgetown accepts fewer early (non-binding) so more January applicants are legitimately in the mix. Both schools have a lot going for it, so it's not like you're asking "I just can't believe Syracuse consistently beats us for students" or something like that. Comparing Georgetown and Duke is like folks comparing Penn and Brown...both will get their share despite the fact that Princeton and Harvard will beat either of them in a head to head battle.
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CTHoya08
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Post by CTHoya08 on Aug 20, 2005 9:30:00 GMT -5
Well, that explains my disbelief. I went to a Catholic school in New England, and I'm a history major with no interest in fraternities. Also, is it right to assume that engineering is the main reason ND rates ahead of us in a lot of rankings? When I was talking to an ND alumnus during my senior year of high school about where I was applying (including some Ivies, GU, ND and BC) he said, "Oh, so ND is your safety."
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DFW HOYA
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 20, 2005 9:41:16 GMT -5
I think ND scores higher on three categories in the US News methodology: faculty resources, financial resources, and alumni giving, none of which will change markedly in the next few years.
There is also the expectations game--the top 25 schools haven't really changed over the years, and if they did, large parts of the educational community would disown it. One year CalTech was #1 and Harvard raised a fit. Next year? Harvard was back at #1. Put another way, what if Michigan and Virginia suddenly outpointed Harvard and Princeton--would you then hear the cries that this is no longer worth the paper it's printed on?
Anecdotally, I think the value of engineering programs are somehow more valuable within this ranking than liberal arts. Note that Lehigh is now #32--eight places higher than Boston College.
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Post by reformation on Aug 20, 2005 17:10:56 GMT -5
A few thoughts re: being more competitive for math and engineering students at GU. GU should follow the lead of some of the top liberal arts schools like Williams + Amherst and offer a 3/2 or 4/2 engineering program with Columbia/Mit etc. as these schools do.(GU could probably offer a minor in house) These joint programs would not cost GU any money and they could link up with schools that are actually much better than our favorite competitors Duke/Penn in these areas. A lot of the really top students at Duke and Penn do joint liberal arts/engr degress or bus/engrdegrees at Wharton;GU would be more competitive for these students ifit thought more creatively re: how to create similar offerings.
Willams/Amherst, e.g., offer top tier programs in the sciences/math because they focus on excellence in their offerings, not just doing enough to get by. You don't need to have your own linear accelerator like a stanford to offer a top tier undergrad program, you simply need to survey best practices and actually adopt them rather than assuming that your way is the only way as GU often does.
GU made a huge error in the last capital campaign by not focusing on expanding its science efforts; hopefully they'll do a better job this time.
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