Racism and Hoya Basketball

[RBHoya]

I hope some of you long time fans can help me understand some of the history of our program here.

So I was casually browsing some threads in the forums over at RealGM.com (hope I'm allowed to post the sites name). In the Knicks forum, where I usually browse, there was a thread about the John Thompson article in the NY Post (discussed in another thread here as well). Some people were speculating on Thompson becoming Knicks coach, typical unfounded speculation, nothing major. However, I eventually came upon a post that read:

"yea and what if we sign boumtje and draft branden bowman, maybe even tony bethel while we're at it....really though **** john thompson that dumb racist....."

Of course, upon seeing this, I was incensed, and I quickly hopped to JTII's defense without thinking twice, suggesting that Coach Thompson recruited the best players, especially within the area, and cared very much about their educations. I also "dissed" the poster for making such a statement about Coach.

When questioned about his stance, the poster replied by saying:

"john thompson hates white people, there has been specials covering this and it is sooooo obvious, can you name one white player ever on g'town during his riegn?"

and later, another poster chimed in saying:

"Didn't Thompson say awhile back.. he wouldn't ever recruit a white person to play on his team."

Now, as you may be able to tell, these guys are not necessarily the brightest bulbs, and the original poster, apparently, has a bit of a reputation as a racist himself. But the whole thing has got me thinking, because if I recall, this is not the first time I've heard the term racist tied to Coach Thompson's name.

In fact, my own Grandfather has basically renounced Thompson and Hoya basketball on racial grounds. My older sister goes to 'Nova, and around Thanksgiving when basketball came up in conversation, he said something like "Yea, I'll sure pull for Villanova, I wish them all the best... but Georgetown?" ::shakes head in disdain:: "I'll never root for them. That John Thompson... he was a biggot. Just like Chaney from Temple. I wont root for Georgetown." Needless to say, I was pretty offended by this, since obviously Hoya Basketball is something that's become very important to me. My Irish-Catholic Grandfather has shown some tendencies toward racism himself, but he was pretty adamant about JTII.

As I've said many times, I'm only a freshman, and I really only became a diehard Hoya fan this season. My knowledge of Hoya basketball history is pretty much on par with your average NCAA Hoops fan... I know who the star players were, the big names, the title win in '84 and the notorious '85 finals. What I dont know is the stuff between the lines, the stuff you cant ascertain from looking at statistics. I'm hoping some of you guys can help me out. Is there any truth to Coach Thompson being racist, showing preferential treatments to African-Americans, Africans, or others with black skin, or anything of the like? Did we have any white players, and did we recruit any? Has Coach made any statements (racial or otherwise) that have made Hoya fans cringe?

Please guys, I'm depending on you to be straight with me here. Clearly Coach Thompson II is someone who is revered on these forums and among Hoya fans in general... But I really want to know the truth, objectively, based on all the evidence. Please dont support Coach blindly and just defend him because we're Hoya fans... defend him if he deserves defense. I'd rather know ugly truth than propagate falsities that I'd like to hear.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[bluesky]

1) This is a slander that was thrown at JTII during his entire career, given fuel by the fact that he was outspoken and principled. The ugliest moment was when he himself was the target of an overt racist attack inside McDonough during a game in his 3d season in charge.
2) This is a slander that was repeatedly used by opposing coaches to scare away talent.
3) This is a slander that did not stop a few white players (eg, guard and longtime assistant, and successor Esherick) from playing for him. Our last points in the heartbreaking loss to NC in the national championship game were in fact scored by a white player (Blue, I think).
4) JTII's lifelong close friendship with Dean Smith also belies the accusation. Who believes Smith would countenance a racist of any kind?

I am white and have always found this accusation personally offesnsive and hurtful. This sort of nonsense has to be countered forcefully, no matter who the perpetrator. The fact that JTII has never allowed it to weaken his principles or his outspokenness or changed him makes me admire and value his example all the more.

I would love to be accused of resembling him and I'm white and no biggot.

[HoyaChris]

bluesky said:

1) This is a slander that was thrown at JTII during his entire career, given fuel by the fact that he was outspoken and principled. The ugliest moment was when he himself was the target of an overt racist attack inside McDonough during a game in his 3d season in charge.
2) This is a slander that was repeatedly used by opposing coaches to scare away talent.
3) This is a slander that did not stop a few white players (eg, guard and longtime assistant, and successor Esherick) from playing for him. Our last points in the heartbreaking loss to NC in the national championship game were in fact scored by a white player (Blue, I think).
4) JTII's lifelong close friendship with Dean Smith also belies the accusation. Who believes Smith would countenance a racist of any kind?

I am white and have always found this accusation personally offesnsive and hurtful. This sort of nonsense has to be countered forcefully, no matter who the perpetrator. The fact that JTII has never allowed it to weaken his principles or his outspokenness or changed him makes me admire and value his example all the more.

I would love to be accused of resembling him and I'm white and no biggot.

For the record, all of the Hoyas in the 1982 championship game were black.

cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/mayhem/history/yearbyyear/1982

That being said, the charges that John was a rascist were both pervasive and outrageous. If one looks at the people that John surrounded himself with, they seem almost disproportionally white, e.g. Esherick, Bill Stein, Mary Fenlon, Red Auerbach, Dean Smith, the guys from Nike, the guys from Vegas.

The fact is that John is big, is black, and is intimidating as hell in person. And our teams were big, black, physical and intimidating as hell. Bigots use the charge of rascism as a cover for their own fear and the Hoyas at their peak were truly scary.

The charge of racism was consistently used against us in recruiting. John went after several high profile white players hard, Rex Chapman in particular, who he thought would be good fits with our style of play. The great irony is that John was accused of rascism for not naming Chapman to the 1988 Olympic roster even though Chapman essentially went 0 for tryout camp. At the same time, and in the wonderful way in which rascists work, he was accused of incompetence for naming an unknown white kid named Dan Majerle to the team.

As the years went by, John became increasingly disinterested in the process of recruiting which he considered degrading. In this environment, our roster became increasingly full with players who almost self-recruited us. It is no surprise that our roster was thus overwhelmingly black in his later years.

[hoyatables]

I suggest you check out the excellent special that has been airing on HBO about the 1985 classic between the Hoyas and the Wildcats. There is a lot about the program in the 1980s that may give you a better sense of where this foolishness comes from.

I could write you a dissertation on this nation's history of race relations and the evolution of racism as an institution of control and degradation to maintain the "peculiar institution" of slavery and later to enforce social controls and prevent miscegenation. Suffice to say it often involved fear of any African-American that demonstrated any strength, confidence, aptitude, or ability--and Coach Thompson did all that. Others above spoke correctly when they observed Thompson's own outspokenness fueled the allegations as well, but that shouldn't excuse this sort of bs. I'd also urge you to track down Coach Thompson's remarks at the end of his coaching career--either the press conference when he stepped down or the hall of fame introduction. I remember a couple of great comments from Coach on those occassions that touched on his criticism.

[AvantGuardHoya]

Talk about opening up a can of worms, RB! bluesky has given you a good response, but I feel compelled to add my two cents. I apologize in advance to anyone if what I've say offends them. That is not my intent. But....

The racism charge has been leveled at JT2 for decades. I've found it alternately amusing, confounding, insulting and plain stupid.

JT2 was a racist? Consider the facts: Once JT2 was given the job as Hoya head coach, his first hire was Mary Fenlon as academic coordinator -- a white woman. Bill Stein and Craig Esherick were top assistants of JT2; both men are white. When JT2 stepped down who did he recommend to succeed him? Esherick, who's still white. Although I'm not certain it's still true today, but for years JT2's agent was David Falk and virtually all of the prominent GU players wound up being represented by Falk when they entered the NBA. You got it -- Falk's white.

I think what galled some whites is that during much of the Hoya Golden Era of the eighties, JT2's teams were all-black or only had one ot two white players, if any. This was in sharp contrast to his earlier teams, which were comprised of more whites. But I'd be shocked if the whites who played for him thought this was a function of racism on his part. I'm talking about guys like Jeff Bullis, Kurt Kaull, David Blue and David Dunn, who were around at that time. Does it make sense to you that Esherick, a lawyer by training, would become an assistant coach to a man who he knew to be racist?

As far as John not recruiting whites, I've long felt that was a crock. We never really knew who JT2 was recruiting -- he kept that aspect of things extremely close to the vest and the information and coverage we get today was no where near as extensive then. What we do know is who arrived at the Hilltop. Those are two different things: who you recruit and who you land. The latter is only a subset of the former. I'm willing to bet that certain white HS players were approached ( I recall Rex Chapman being one). They would necessarily have to be athletic players who JT2 thought could fit into and contribute to his defensively oriented system.

Also on the recruiting tip, for many of JT2 years our top recruiter was Esherick. Was he racist in who he'd approach? I think not. And you certainly never heard that charge levelled at him once he became head coach, even though nothing much changed.

I know I'll never change the perceptions of those who cling to the "JT2 was a racist" notion. He's a principled man of strong convictions and opinions. As head coach of GU men's basketball, he had a bully pulpit which he used to forcefully speak out on certain issues. A not insignificant number of Americans still aren't comfortable with blacks who do stuff like that. And when it comes in a 6'10" package, whew!

[TigerHoya]

I've become convinced this same kind of thing hits any Black coach at a school that's only had white coaches before.

A guy who was tight with one of Larry Shyatt's sons (who was a G.A. there and is now at SC as a G.A.) has been muddying up Clemson boards this year with accusations that Coach Purnell is a racist and won't recruit any white players. His "proof": Purnell backed off some white players (who were ranked pretty lowly in HS) and wound up signing some black players. The fact that there was a white player on the team this year who got minutes in the early part of the non-conference schedule (against the MEAC and Big South teams) was solely because Shyatt recruited him according to this guy (who started throwing out accusations of racism against JTII and even John Chaney when I challenged him on it.)

[SirSaxa]

Avantguard

I agree with all of that. And I recall many stories of opposing coaches who would tell white recruits that JT was a racist and if this young white star went to GU he would be buried. (But then, why was JT recruiting said white star in the first place? There is no rule that says accusations had to make sense!)

BUT

There is another view here that needs to be recognized. JT had a huge advantage in recruiting the black community -- as the first, most prominent, and most successful black head coach in the country -- so he had a much higher ratio of success in targeting those recruits. And he focused on the area where he had an advantage. But follow this line and

Look at this the other way around.

My personal test for whether a decision, policy, judgement, whatever seems to favor one race, gender, age group, ethnicity, religion..... just reverse the subjects in your head. Does it still seem fair? Does it still seem unfair? Does it still seem funny? Does it seem right?

So let's say we had a prominent coach in the '80s and '90s...like an Adolph Rupp at UK in earlier decades. He had a successful team. And every one of his players was white. Every one. (The majority of JT's teams were all black). Would that look odd to you? Would it make you think that maybe Adolph (gotta love that name) favored white kids over black kids? Would it seem right?

If JT really were a racist, he would not have named Craig as his replacement. There are many other examples already cited in this thread to dispute the racism charge. But the make up of the team is the most highly visible factor in many people's minds. Is it proof all by itself? If Roy Williams had ONLY white players on all his teams, would it make you suspect there was something more than mere chance that led to that?

Does racism have to be actively cultivated to be racism? Does the lack of opportunity for black head coaches in college football mean there is a racist conspiracy? Or is it simply AD's hiring people they know? People with whom they are comfortable? What does "comfortable" really mean anyway? What about black head coaches in the NFL? And so forth. Do you have to put up a sign that reads "No blacks allowed" to be racist? Or do the results provide enough evidence? OK, so what if your team... year after year... is all black. What message is that sending? Might a reasonable person draw any conclusions from that?

Personally, I think it is awful to toss out the term racism (As Jermaine O'Neal just did) lightly. Especially to make that kind of accusation about an individual. Of course, we know that racism exists all over the world.. the USA, Europe, Asia, Africa (look at SUDAN). It isn't always the same races. But it is the same kind of fear and hate. very sad.

OK, I didn't mean to get too philosophical here. Just to raise some issues for thought. No, I don't believe JT is a racist. But he could have been more proactive in diffusing that perception.

[TigerHoya]

SirSaxa said:

There is another view here that needs to be recognized. JT had a huge advantage in recruiting the black community -- as the first, most prominent, and most successful black head coach in the country -- so he had a much higher ratio of success in targeting those recruits. And he focused on the area where he had an advantage.

Which would fuel resentment and envy among other coaches losing out on those recruits possibly and which could be one of the causes of the accusations/hints of racism by other schools.

[EasyEd]

Wasn't Brian Kelly a starter on the 90/91 and 91/92 teams? He was white and, I believe, a JC transfer. He started and was very aggressive, particularly on defense and on the boards.

[DanMcQ]

Many excellent replies here.

The problem here for you, RB, is that you've fallen prey to a chat board troll. There is no cogent factual argument that you can make that will change their minds. The mere fact that you reply will elicit more outrageous comments from them. It's usually best to ignore them, as maddening as that can be.

The only additional anecdote I remember is Thompson commenting (while he was coaching the Olympic team) on how much he would have loved to have Dan Majerle play for him.

[GIGAFAN99]

JT put it this way in an interview: "I recruited black players because they were good at basketball. If I were a hockey coach I would have recruited more white players."

This is the heart of the issue I think. Who played for UNC this year? They had ONE white player at the end of the bench. Is Roy Williams or Matt Doherty a racist?

JT was a controversial figure and influential in the black community. If you have unpopular views people will try to destroy you with rhetoric.

I've always liked that JT got real when asked. We will not have one important player this year who is white. Most teams won't have more than one at the absolute most. But somehow when the coach is black, that means he must be racist because (gasp!) the team is almost all black. Great argument: find the trend and then attribute it to a man to make him seem sinister.

[the_way]

easyed said:

Wasn't Brian Kelly a starter on the 90/91 and 91/92 teams? He was white and, I believe, a JC transfer. He started and was very aggressive, particularly on defense and on the boards.

I'm glad you brought up Brian Kelly. Actually Brian Kelly recruited himself. He sent a tape to JT2 of his basketball games and he told JT2 that he really wanted to play for him. That is how that turned out. Brian Kelly (who is now practicing law in California last time I checked) had mentioned in a Washington Times article a couple of years ago that a lot of his friends didn't understand why he wanted to go to G'town. His friends would say, "why do you want to go that all-black school". Its ironic, that G'town was mostly all-white and for people who only knew what they saw on television , they assumed G'town was a black college because they fielded all-black or mostly black teams. I also recall Jim Boheim of Syracuse saying that JT2 actively recruited white players, but why they never came to GU he couldn't figure out.


It was all perception and what the media portrayed JT2 as. My whole thing is that it was nothing controversial or intimidating about JT2. He was a black man who spoke his mind and didn't apologize for being a black man who spoke his mind. There is, in reality, nothing controversial or intimidating about that. But to those who actually WERE racist, JT2 was controversial and intimidating because they felt that JT2 should know his place and keep his mouth shut. There was back then, and there is still now a lot people out there who don't like blacks who are articulate, eloquent, intellectual, successful, and financially wealthy in this country. JT2 was all of that and he helped a lot of young black men and some young white men become the same thing he became.

[hoyalove4ever]

This is one of the best treads in the history of Hoyatalk, and I have little to add to it other than this:

People who say that Thompson didn't recruit whites can't point to a single white player who wanted to go to Gtown but didn't get offered. However, there are numerous black players who have commented on being spurned from Gtwon (Etan Thomas comes to mind immediately, although I know I have heard of others).

As someone who came to the South while JT was still coaching and immediately heard that racist garbage, I have found that the best way to refute it is to recite the numerous and obvious examples that refute the point, and then ignore the other person is he refuses to be rational.

[TigerHoya]

the_way said:

Brian Kelly (who is now practicing law in California last time I checked) had mentioned in a Washington Times article a couple of years ago that a lot of his friends didn't understand why he wanted to go to G'town. His friends would say, "why do you want to go that all-black school". Its ironic, that G'town was mostly all-white and for people who only knew what they saw on television , they assumed G'town was a black college because they fielded all-black or mostly black teams.

I got the exact same reaction from people my senior year of HS in 1992. I even had someone think when I was home for Christmas in Dec. of 1992 in my freshman year that my blue pullover starter jacket was just an oddly colored UGA jacket because of the bulldog with the G on his hat on the back of it.

[the_way]

hoyalove4ever said:

This is one of the best treads in the history of Hoyatalk, and I have little to add to it other than this:

People who say that Thompson didn't recruit whites can't point to a single white player who wanted to go to Gtown but didn't get offered. However, there are numerous black players who have commented on being spurned from Gtwon (Etan Thomas comes to mind immediately, although I know I have heard of others).

As someone who came to the South while JT was still coaching and immediately heard that racist garbage, I have found that the best way to refute it is to recite the numerous and obvious examples that refute the point, and then ignore the other person is he refuses to be rational.

That is interesting you mention Etan Thomas. What happened with that. Its ironic because JT2 interviewed him on his talk show and JT2 now says Etan is one his favorite players in the NBA.

[Frank Black]

I think it is important to note that white people are generally bad at basketball. For whatever reason, white people just stink. I'm not saying being a white person is bad, but I will tell you right now if I saw a white person I would rip his head off.

[YB]

Craig Esherick is STILL white? Can we pun ish him for this???

Seriously, I really don't think JT2 was racist. He had to deal with quite a bit of REAL racism growing up in DC- and, yes, at GU too- and his reaction was to win, win with class, and be outspoken in his crusade against racism.

Don't forget, he also took a lot of troubled kids from bad hoods, and those tend not to be white kids. He really tried to prove that, given the opportunity, anyone can perform at a high level, on and off the court.

Guess he felt not a lot of good white hoops players came from poor backgrounds.

[hoyatables]

hoyalove4ever said:

This is one of the best treads in the history of Hoyatalk, and I have little to add to it other than this:

People who say that Thompson didn't recruit whites can't point to a single white player who wanted to go to Gtown but didn't get offered. However, there are numerous black players who have commented on being spurned from Gtwon (Etan Thomas comes to mind immediately, although I know I have heard of others).

As someone who came to the South while JT was still coaching and immediately heard that racist garbage, I have found that the best way to refute it is to recite the numerous and obvious examples that refute the point, and then ignore the other person is he refuses to be rational.

I also had the same experience -- and that was in suburban New York in the heart of Big East country. It certainly wasn't all people or even most, but definitely a few thought of Georgetown as a "black" school. I suppose in addition to showing a general lack of knowledge, it demonstrated the continuing force of Georgetown basketball as a national force and symbol of the University even in the mid-90s.

[SSHoya]

I once heard Father Healy comment about allegationss that JTII was a racist. He recounted a story when a group of "concerned" alums (older & white -- probably of RBHoya's grandfather's generation) came to him once to ask why JTII did not recruit any white players, and were concerned about the image of GU. Father Healy's response was that if you can demonstrate that any of you asked the same question of GU and its Admnistration in the years when GU had no black players I'll listen to you. Otherwise, I have no questions about who plays for John Thompson. A great response.

[GULIVES]

This is an interesting topic that has encouraged me to join the "new" board after months of monitoring after the switch. JTII was viewed by many as a racist, but the overwhelming majority of people who thought he was racist were white people who themselves were racist. This subject has bothered me for years and I have had endless debates/arguments with people who are not Hoays about JTII.

JTII did in fact recruit white players and, as mentioned in other posts, JTII relied on many white people to serve key roles in his program. Rex Chapman has been mentioned in other posts. Danny Ferry was another. There are many others, but these are two of the big names. He recruited and played white guys who fit his system. Someone mentioned Brian Kelly. I knew him while he was at Georgetown. He had great respect for JTII and told me that he absolutely was not a racist. Some might also remember that Mike Sabol (a white guy) also played at Geogetown at the same time as Brian Kelly, before transferring to AU.

Some people saw what JTII did as racist, others saw it for what it was. Grant Hill was recruited hard by JTII, but did not come to GU because he was offended that he was asked to read a book out loud. Is that racist? I think Grant Hill thought it was -- so is JTII racist against blacks or whites? The answer is neither. JTII is/was an educator. From my perspective, he gained great pride in helping the under-privileged to succeed. The fact that the majority of under-privileged people he helped succeed were black is not surprising or remarkable given his background. He should be praised and honored for his efforts to help under-privileged kids get an opportunity to succeed athletically and academically.

It is also important to keep in mind that he put academics first. He threw a number of kids off the team who couldn't cut it academically at Georgetown but who were eligible under NCAA rules. JTII's focus was right on. He is an amazing man and we are lucky to have his wonderful son as our coach.

Tell your friends and family who call JTII racist that they are simply uninformed.