RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Mar 19, 2010 0:53:16 GMT -5
I wasn't even upset about the loss--this team from coach to players earned that butt kicking and Ohio U outplayed them in every facet. End of story. That being said-when I read the frontpage and it had a quote of what a "young team" the Hoyas were, that got my anger up quite a bit. The 1984 team relied on Ewing (JR), Dalton (JR),Martin (JR), Wingate (soph), Jackson (Soph), Broadnax (Soph), Williams (FR), Graham (FR) and you had Gene Smith/Fred Brown as the "Sr" leaders. It's not about age--it's about talent/toughness/commitment to winning--which means players accept their roles--and everyone is committed to the goal--of winning--which means playing DEFENSE. Getting in a stance/playing team defense doesn't have to have an age placed upon it. Today's CBB is nowhere near as good as the past-but it's also easier to make a run with younger players too. So....hearing this from III was very unsettling and actually made me more angry then the game. To accept an excuse and say you "denied" it makes you/team feel better but it's BULLCRAP! This team's approach or lack of a defensive one sucked and if they were all 5th year SR's it would still suck. To allow excuses to make you feel better isn't correcting the issue. Anyone who talks of the "System" isn't focusing on true problem--OFFENSE WAS GREAT--it was defense that stunk all season. This program was built on great defense and great TEAM defense. III's intial teams got after it on defensive end--now it was skewed by slower offensive system, but they could get stops when needed. Past two years--with his smallest teams-he's seen bad defense and terrible rebounding. If he plays same lineup next year or loses Greg and stays "small"--it'll stink again-with 3 SR's--so will that be "more frustrating"? EXCUSES ARE FOR LOSERS and III is better then this. Accepting that is not admitting change is needed--which isn't bad. It's just realizing that certain things need to change to make program better and that comment just irritated me beyond belief. Nothing will improve if you don't admit what isn't working.
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Z
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 409
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Post by Z on Mar 19, 2010 0:58:07 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more, RDF. The reality is this team played defense like a grizzled group of accountants at the Y - would have loved to see more youthful sprite out of this overhyped, underachieving group of "kids."
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Post by btfhoya on Mar 19, 2010 0:58:42 GMT -5
Bottom line...JT3 isnt a GREAT D1 coach. He is good. He can keep us interested. However, he doesnt have the desire and skill to be a great coach in bid D1 basketball. The faster we accept that the faster we will be confortable with these types of seasons under him.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Mar 19, 2010 1:02:48 GMT -5
Bottom line...JT3 isnt a GREAT D1 coach. He is good. He can keep us interested. However, he doesnt have the desire and skill to be a great coach in bid D1 basketball. The faster we accept that the faster we will be confortable with these types of seasons under him. You know how many games we'd win without JT3? Not ten. Not ten f'in games to paraphrase Magoo. Blame falls everywhere - our guys played like a bunch of hornswaggles in many of our losses. No silver bullet tonight to come from the sidelines when you give up 97 points. At about 60 points, I would have thought it would become a matter of pride for the guys on the floor to buckle down. The only stop we got tonight was post-game on our players' Twitter accounts.
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Z
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Posts: 409
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Post by Z on Mar 19, 2010 1:03:29 GMT -5
Unfortunately the only team playing traditional "Georgetown" D this year is WVU - let's hope we reverse the trend next year.
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Post by afalcon10 on Mar 19, 2010 1:09:34 GMT -5
What exactly did III say that qualified as an excuse? Kentucky is a pretty young team as well...
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Post by btfhoya on Mar 19, 2010 1:11:28 GMT -5
Are you serious? JT3 has a ton of talent on his squad. More than Murray State, BYU, Old Dominion, MSC....who all have tourney wins this year. He has had the fortunate opportunity of having Gtown's past to help him. However, Gtown's future isnt going to build off him. He is a good coach...but his inability to retain talent is going to haunt us for years.
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Post by jerseyhoya34 on Mar 19, 2010 1:16:00 GMT -5
Are you serious? JT3 has a ton of talent on his squad. More than Murray State, BYU, Old Dominion, MSC....who all have tourney wins this year. He has had the fortunate opportunity of having Gtown's past to help him. However, Gtown's future isnt going to build off him. He is a good coach...but his inability to retain talent is going to haunt us for years. You know a team with a lot of talent - Texas. They have national championship talent but could not win a game after nonconference play. This team has a triumvirate - 3 people - who get talked about as talented. Right now, 2 of those 3 have second round potential, and the other is a lottery pick whenever he chooses to leave. Compare to JT3's first grouping - 1 lottery, 1 borderline lottery, and 2 in the second round (then add Wallace). I'll give you this - we needed Macklin and Rivers tonight and have needed them for the last few seasons. We miss Dajuan Summers. You'll lose me once we get into Nikitaland, Omar, Josh Thorton, Tay Spann, et al.
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Post by btfhoya on Mar 19, 2010 1:21:56 GMT -5
Nikita could have added minutes as well as Benimon could but at least he could finish a layup or hit a 3 once in a while. Who said anything about Omar, Thorton etc? If you are lost its your own fault. I just said that JT3 doesnt know how to retain talent...talent WE NEED! He doesnt know how to get role players to want to fill those roles.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Mar 19, 2010 1:36:03 GMT -5
Part of a program's job is to have ASSISTANT COACHES who communicate/help the HC by developing role players over their careers. The biggest criticism I have of this current program is the need to upgrade the Staff--I don't think much of Dave Cox or Kenya Hunter and if the HC has to do their job in addition to his own--he needs to find NEW ASSISTANTS.
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OldHoyafan
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,387
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Post by OldHoyafan on Mar 19, 2010 5:55:23 GMT -5
After the disaster last night I needed an uplift so I put in the "feel good" movie Blindside. AS I watched the scene where Michael Oher decides to do his term paper on Tennyson's poem"The charge of the light brigade", it dawned on me what might be happening with this team. I think that JT3 is a very good X and O's coach. He has taken the Princeton offence taught him under Carril and tweaked it to become his hybrid offense. He has taken some of the man-to-man principles of his dad's defense and tweaked it to get his switching man-to-man defense. What then is missing with this team that has 3 Mckie D AA? I think it is that common bond of playing for something bigger than your individual self. Just as the soldiers in the poem rode off to a certain death, they did so because it was for a cause greater than themselves. When JT2 was building the program back in the late 70's and early 80's it was Hoya Paranoia, "us against the world" that was the common bond amongst all JT2's players. They played to show the world that they were good and that their coach was a good coach. JT2's teams parlayed that attitude into a National Championship in 1984. When JT3 took over the program it was at a low level of recognized prominance in college basketball, i.e. Billy Packer comment "why would major recruit go to GTown". His battle cry was "we are Georgetown, some have forgotten, but we will make them remember" J. Green,J. Wallace, R. Hibbert,Sapp, Pat,Jr, all came to Georgetown and played for Georgetown to make that battle cry a reality. To make people remember that Georgetown was and would be again a national power. They played with a common purpose to get the Hoyas back to the Final Four. They played for something bigger than themselves. That motivation can make you forget your nerves and play inspired ball. Last year's team and this year's team seemed to lack that motivation of wanting to prove the Hoyas were back. The Green, Wallace and Hibbert teams had already done that. Their job was to maintain that status, but they could not except when faced with the motivation to prove that they were as good as the top teams i.e., the victories over UConn last year Duke, Nova, Syracuse, and Pitt this year. As I look back on last night and how Ohio torched their defense. It was not because they were lazy or did not care, it was because they were the favorites and the pressure of the big stage put concrete in their feet. They were not trying to prove that they could beat a good team they were just trying to maintain. They were not playing for somethng bigger than themselves. The task for JT3 forward will be to convince these young guys that while The Final Four is the Mecca of college ball, it is raising that trophy at the end that is the ultimate goal, not to just get there. Green, Wallace and Hibbert did not complete the journey, they must ban together and finish the job of being national champs again before the world really remembers and recognizes that the Hoyas are back. That's why the snake oil salesman Calipari will win it all this year because he has his young Kentucky team playing to restore the glory of Kentucky basketball and to win him his first national title. They are playing for something bigger than their individual selves.
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paranoia2
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
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Post by paranoia2 on Mar 19, 2010 6:38:16 GMT -5
I honestly believe the "play smart stay out of foul trouble" warning hurt the overall intensity of this 7 deep squad. Summers, Macklin, & Braswell could have been on this team but things didn't break that way. JT III will get the players and when their is quality depth I hope a press and some more aggressive defense follows suit.
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Post by hoya10 on Mar 19, 2010 6:39:19 GMT -5
You know how many games we'd win without JT3? Not ten. Not ten f'in games to paraphrase Magoo. ts. Oh my. I simply don't understand this sentence..... Do you think we have a talentless team? NOT TEN??? Maybe if some kid in the student body was coaching the team. How could you possibly even think this?
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Post by rammajamma on Mar 19, 2010 6:46:30 GMT -5
JTIII's offense did not lose this game and he IS a good coach .. we scored 83 points which should be enough to beat Ohio by 20. The fact is that we played absolutely no defense and turned the ball over in bunches, and at critical times (outset of the first and second halves). Tis what it tis ... but let's not go off the deep end folks.
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bmartin
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by bmartin on Mar 19, 2010 7:15:34 GMT -5
The biggest failure this year was the lack of development of Henry Sims. That is a shared responsibility of the coaches and Henry himself. The second biggest failure was the lack of development of a lockdown perimeter defender. We overswitch and overhelp and play bad zones because we can't guard straight up. We needed Vee to develop as a defensive specialist. Clark has the reach to get some steals and contest shots but he could be beaten off the dribble. The third failure was a lack of good options or a plan when Freeman was off or out. We needed to play Hollis at the three but to do that we needed more from Vaughn, Benimon, and Sims. Whenever their man set a pick we were in trouble and on the offensive end their defender could hedge and help without getting burned.
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Post by Giannicolus Jones on Mar 19, 2010 7:27:38 GMT -5
I don't agree with the excuse at all, but maybe he meant inexperience.
We only had 2 guys with 2 games worth of NCAA tournament experience, whereas the 84 team had plenty.
But that still doesn't make much sense seeing that Ohio had none.
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
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Post by the_way on Mar 19, 2010 7:29:15 GMT -5
I think we are young and lack leadership, outside of Freeman.
the problem with the youth argument is that folks don't say it when we win. only when we lose.
I think a great point is made about something bigger than yourselves effects your motivation and how you play.
But, i'm not sure that was the case with the Hibbert, Wallace, and Green era.
JTIII needs guys who are self-motivated.
And ultimately, all winning coaches do.
Its the type of player that you have. Sure, some coaches can give speeches, but if kids don't want to do it, its no point.
When JTIII first got here, he walked into an ideal situation. He had kids who were self-motivated.
Hibbert could barely walk and run up and down the court, and he turned himself into an NBA 1st round draft pick.
Green had lead his high school team to a state championship. he knew what it meant to be a leader and play in the high-stakes type of environment.
Wallace had an uncanny field for the game in terms of running a team and sensing when his team needed him most or when it was good for him to fall back and get others involved.
Ewing, Jr. could have played fpr a Division III school. His motor, enthusiasm, and tenacity would not change. Thats the type of kid that he was.
Crawford, rarely saw time on the basketball court. Yet, he had the respect of his teammates and they viewed him as a leader and looked to him for leadership. How often do you see that in sports?
So yeah, playing for something bigger is all great, but when it comes down to it, kids have to "want it" regardless of the circumstances. All the great competitors compete. They compete just as hard in the big games as they do in pick-up games. Circumstances and external factors mean nothing.
The opportunity to compete is the primary, motivating factor.
With this group we have....we can light up the stat sheet and box scores, we have the McDonald's All-americans, rivals.com ranked recruits....but where is the "it" factor with this team. That extra "umph" that you can't put your finger on, that makes a team special. I don't see that with this group we have right now.
Freeman finally showed some intangibles this year, imo. But other than that, I haven't seen that from Monroe and Wright, our other top players. Maybe another year of experience will change that, maybe it won't.
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sleepy
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
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Post by sleepy on Mar 19, 2010 7:40:07 GMT -5
RDF as usual is right on point. For two years this group has been a very mediocre at best defensive team. the 07 teamy was not a great team For D early but was able to grow and find the pieces and the ability to play a strong defesive system in FEB and March. In Ewing and Rivers we added some tough defensive intensity and Hibbert and Jeff could shut down the middle. This team was sorely lacking. I've said it all year our on ball defensive skills across the board are weak, hence we are forced to resort to playing an extensive amount of help defense.. because of lack of team speed at every position our recovery is slow and the help phiosophy that was ingrained in this team is clear when even in the straight man we continually suck in everyone below the foul line on any kind of penetration. Whether its true or not but it always appeared that this team was too damn scared to play tough D and pick up fouls vs. Staying on the floor and not disrupting the offensive flow. When Benimon is your defensive answer enough said. I'm not sure this is going to change, despite what Greg does or doesn't do. When your recruiting class includes more of the same types of players in Markel and Nate both great players but lacking in what is really needed for next year and beyond.
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Post by ColumbiaHeightsHoya on Mar 19, 2010 8:01:25 GMT -5
RDF, your III bashing is annoying. Let it go dude. His is our coach and he is a really good one. Something on D is amiss for sure but your love of the glory days when we had no offensive strategy and played great D ain't coming back soon so get used to it.
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tjm62
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 855
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Post by tjm62 on Mar 19, 2010 8:08:30 GMT -5
This may sound laughable given the original point of this thread, but I'm serious:
JTIII is a young coach. This is only his 6th season coaching at this level. Recruiting classes pan out over YEARS.
He has obviously shown a great ability to bring in talented players, and I would never doubt for a second his commitment to winning. He will improve with time.
I love JTIII, and Georgetown will be fine.
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