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Post by centercourt400s on Jan 14, 2010 12:16:49 GMT -5
Nothing here that hasn't been said before by more than a few on this board. The article is generally positive in nature but harps on perceived lack of aggressiveness and the "system" that holds him back. Excerpt: "I don't like a guy who is 6-11 drifting on the perimeter so much. He has to get to the basket. To be an All-American, you have to be assertive. Monroe is a good kid who does what coaches tell him to do. He is a little too passive at times." sports.espn.go.com/espn/dickvitale/news/story?id=4823188
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theexorcist
Diamond Hoya (over 2500 posts)
Posts: 3,506
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Post by theexorcist on Jan 14, 2010 12:20:32 GMT -5
Before everybody rips Vitale, note the following two sentences:
"Part of that is the Hoyas offensive system, which curtails his opportunity to get the basketball. This system has been effective for John Thompson III, who reached the Final Four with it a few years back."
Anyway. Does the Solid Gold team come with its own dancers?
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lichoya68
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
OK YOUNGINS ARE HERE AND ARE VERY VERY GOOD cant wait GO HOYAS
Posts: 17,440
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Post by lichoya68 on Jan 14, 2010 12:28:27 GMT -5
i agree that greg must be much more meanier yup the system dont inhibit julian being more aggressive so GREGBEMUCHMOREMEANIERNOWPLEASENEEDYABUDDY great second halfs when his energy and the system looks more for him inside and thats worked so when you see greg five points and four rebbies first half you know most times hell end up with the final being 15 and ten AND A WIN soooooo happy with him and coach and the system but little more meaninessss would be EVEN BETTER
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the_way
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
The Illest
Posts: 5,422
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Post by the_way on Jan 14, 2010 13:20:02 GMT -5
So how did Hibbert get the ball enough, and Greg doesn't, but they played in the same system?
Is JTIII our coach or does the system coach this team?
Greg is the player he is....unconventional for a big man. JTIII is okay with that.
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skyhoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 2,496
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Post by skyhoya on Jan 14, 2010 13:29:23 GMT -5
No one would complain if a point guard had his numbers. He has to touch the ball on O, that makes the O system work and allows other players to participate.
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Post by hoyas big supporter on Jan 14, 2010 13:45:40 GMT -5
No one would complain if a point guard had his numbers. He has to touch the ball on O, that makes the O system work and allows other players to participate. but gregs not a guard thats the point.....
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Dhall
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,679
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Post by Dhall on Jan 14, 2010 14:13:02 GMT -5
Greg is not a good post-up player right now so why put him int hat position more? Green and Hibbert were automatic within 3-5 feet in their last years so the complaint was valid for them, but I truly believe Greg is more effective playing farther from the rim right now. If he works on his post game and moves (in practice), then sure he should work more down low. Right now, he and JTIII are doing the right thing by staying far from the hoop as much as he does because that can showcase his other skills which are more developed.
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Post by schiavoed on Jan 14, 2010 14:20:02 GMT -5
but what is wrong with greg having a game that is more guard-ish than one would expect? why should players be pigeonholed by the conventions of their positions? i'd argue greg has been much more efficient in the high post than in the low post this year - not banging down low but hanging out closer to the top and allowing space for better vision and off-the-ball movement.
greg's low post game is progressing, but it's not at such a high level that people should be clamoring for it to be our go-to offensively like they are. he's simply not as efficient in the low post right now. and thats fine because he's great elsewhere. greg knows where he's effective; let's just hope he's assertive. let greg be greg and let go of these cookie cutter conceptions of the game.
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tgo
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 802
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Post by tgo on Jan 14, 2010 14:35:35 GMT -5
my favorite vitale moment of the You-CON game was in the first half when he started talking about greg not getting enough touches ... he launched into this seconds after a pass to greg in the high post and i think greg had gotten the ball on the previous possession too.
while i have only seen the games i can get on the west coast, it appears to me that greg's best moments seem to be when he has the ball at the foul line and can pass or drive - two things he does very well for any size of player, exceptionally well for someone his size- so why have him pegged to the low post?
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saxamaphone
Bulldog (over 250 posts)
Yes III Can.
Posts: 259
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Post by saxamaphone on Jan 14, 2010 14:37:42 GMT -5
Let's just go ahead and dispel that myth right now. It's not the coach or the system, it's Greg.
Greg is currently using 27.7% of all available possessions and taking 26.3% of the shots on this team. He easily leads this year's team in both metrics. Those numbers are also higher than the 24.9% used and 25.2% shots that Jeff Green racked up in 2007. Did anyone think Jeff didn't get the ball enough on the way to the Final Four? No? Then the problem isn't that Monroe isn't getting enough touches.
The problem is Greg's efficiency, a paltry 99.7 compared to Jeff's 114.4 and Roy's otherworldly 130.8 from 07.
Think the reason for that is all those turnovers from having his pocket picked dribbling in traffic? Think again. Greg actually turns the ball over less than Jeff did (19.3 TORate for GM vs. 20.8 for JG)
The difference is 2pt FG% and, to a lesser extent, FT shooting. Greg is only making 49.0% of his two pointers compared to Jeff's 55.9% and 60.8% of his FTs compared to 77.5%, despite getting to the line more frequently.
49% isn't going to cut it. In fact, the only 2 people that shot under 50% for 2s on the entire 2007 and 2009 teams combined are DaJuan and Jeremiah in 07.
Greg needs to be more aggressive when it comes to getting to the rack, plain and simple. If he keeps settling for baby hooks, jumpers, and weak lefty layups he'll continue to be good/great and not excellent. If he starts hitting the rim like Jeff did in the BC game though, look out.
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rambis
Century (over 100 posts)
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Post by rambis on Jan 14, 2010 14:45:54 GMT -5
Hubert Davis nailed it in the post-game coverage of the UConn game, bit.ly/6V8Seq There is a chorus of analysts expounding that Monroe should be a post player and some are suggesting that the system is preventing him from doing that. Maybe, just maybe, Monroe does like to get the ball at the high post and welcomes the opportunity to play in a system that allows him to do that.
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Hoya50
Silver Hoya (over 500 posts)
Posts: 805
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Post by Hoya50 on Jan 14, 2010 14:48:34 GMT -5
the elephant in the room is that greg's interior game is average at best. he only goes one direction and has no post presence. he makes himself small by not establishing position. if he plays on the perimeter, then he needs to play like a perimeter player. teams are daring him to shoot and he won't do it. he needs to establish an ability to make the perimeter shot.
greg is a wonderful passer in this system and so was jeff. no here's something for greg to think about - this season, jeff is averaging 1.6 assists per game. at the pro level, fowards don't get assists - the guards do.
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RDF
Platinum Hoya (over 5000 posts)
Posts: 8,835
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Post by RDF on Jan 14, 2010 14:53:11 GMT -5
The guy is averaging 15 and 10 a game. Those are INCREASES from last year and he does get the ball a lot more then Vitale has "seen"--but he's got to make layups and close range shots. If he did so more consistently---he'd average 20+ and 10 boards. More importantly the TEAM IS WINNING-which is all that matters to me as a fan. I could care if Vitale likes how "he's used".
Here's my issue with idiots like Dick Vitale. He went on and on about Stanley Robinson's "performance"--when Robinson was dunking and hitting wide open 3pt shots. Talked of how the "scouts are loving this......" when in fact--Robinson was not even a factor in the 2nd Half--when the game was not only a game--it was important for players to step up when it's counted on for big time players to do so--I saw Monroe making plays on both ends--and Robinson--he was too busy trying to leak out for highlight dunks then help his team rebound the ball and he was getting destroyed trying to check Austin Freeman.
Of course Vitale's idea on NBA is so far gone Greg should thank him for the criticism--because this is same man who bet Stephen A Smith "a steak dinner" that Luke Jackson would be a better NBA player then Andre Iguodala. How's that worked out Dick?
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hoyabinx
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
Posts: 1,043
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Post by hoyabinx on Jan 14, 2010 14:59:05 GMT -5
Vitale and Co. want ratings. Stanley Robinson promotes ratings because of his athletic plays. Greg Monroe helps win games. Period.
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Post by centercourt400s on Jan 14, 2010 15:03:29 GMT -5
The difference is 2pt FG% and, to a lesser extent, FT shooting. Greg is only making 49.0% of his two pointers compared to Jeff's 55.9%... Bingo. Greg misses a pretty high percentage of his layups, tip-ins, put backs, etc. It almost seems like he works so hard just to get an interior shot off that he loses focus on making sure it goes in. If he could cut his layup misses in half, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.
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Post by strummer8526 on Jan 14, 2010 15:11:14 GMT -5
Vitale is worthless. I was at the UConn game but watched it later on ESPN.com. He spent the entire second half talking about Monroe. At one point, he said "You gotta get the ball to the big man!" when Monroe ALREADY HAD THE BALL for several seconds. All Vitale cares about is the one big-name star on each team, and he doesn't know anything beyond that.
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hoyajoker07
Century (over 100 posts)
"This league deserves a better class of basketball"
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Post by hoyajoker07 on Jan 14, 2010 15:12:05 GMT -5
The guy is averaging 15 and 10 a game. Those are INCREASES from last year and he does get the ball a lot more then Vitale has "seen"--but he's got to make layups and close range shots. If he did so more consistently---he'd average 20+ and 10 boards. More importantly the TEAM IS WINNING-which is all that matters to me as a fan. I could care if Vitale likes how "he's used". Here's my issue with idiots like Dick Vitale. He went on and on about Stanley Robinson's "performance"--when Robinson was dunking and hitting wide open 3pt shots. Talked of how the "scouts are loving this......" when in fact--Robinson was not even a factor in the 2nd Half--when the game was not only a game--it was important for players to step up when it's counted on for big time players to do so--I saw Monroe making plays on both ends--and Robinson--he was too busy trying to leak out for highlight dunks then help his team rebound the ball and he was getting destroyed trying to check Austin Freeman. Of course Vitale's idea on NBA is so far gone Greg should thank him for the criticism--because this is same man who bet Stephen A Smith "a steak dinner" that Luke Jackson would be a better NBA player then Andre Iguodala. How's that worked out Dick? This. I'm so glad I didn't have to listen to Vitale talk about Robinson and his ridiculous T-worthy dunks. I feel like you get one of those, fine, I don't need the T on just one, but you do it twice more and I want a technical. Anyone see Top Ten after the game? I bet my buddy that Robinson's dunks would STILL be on there even after a loss.
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SFHoya99
Blue & Gray (over 10,000 posts)
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Post by SFHoya99 on Jan 14, 2010 15:12:30 GMT -5
The difference is 2pt FG% and, to a lesser extent, FT shooting. Greg is only making 49.0% of his two pointers compared to Jeff's 55.9%... Bingo. Greg misses a pretty high percentage of his layups, tip-ins, put backs, etc. It almost seems like he works so hard just to get an interior shot off that he loses focus on making sure it goes in. If he could cut his layup misses in half, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. This is a little outdated now (through SJU), but it's illuminating: hoyaprospectus.blogspot.com/2010/01/shot-selelction-and-lineup-efficiencies.htmlGreg was shooting 59% on layups and tipins. Roy shot 60% as a senior. Jeff shot 69% as a junior. So he's definitely behind Jeff, but he's not really behind Roy. The downside is that Greg was shooting 25% on 2-pt "jumpers" -- which includes hook shots and low post play that isn't a layup -- whereas Roy shot 52% and Jeff shot 41%. The good news is that Greg shot MUCH better last year. Perhaps he will recover.
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Post by centercourt400s on Jan 14, 2010 15:25:30 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Greg missed 6 or 7 close-in shots in the You-CON game so I'd bet his % has indeed fallen since St. Johns. On the upside, he hit hit a couple of clutch ones late that were critical to the win. I think he can work his way through it and really, if he gets just two more layups per game to drop, he'll be averaging 18+ points/game and we are all fat and happy.
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CO_Hoya
Golden Hoya (over 1000 posts)
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Post by CO_Hoya on Jan 14, 2010 15:38:46 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure Greg missed 6 or 7 close-in shots in the You-CON game so I'd bet his % has indeed fallen since St. Johns. On the upside, he hit hit a couple of clutch ones late that were critical to the win. I think he can work his way through it and really, if he gets just two more layups per game to drop, he'll be averaging 18+ points/game and we are all fat and happy. Monroe missed 6 2-pt shots against UConn. As per the play-by-play, 4 of those misses were jumpers, 2 were layups. As I wrote in SFHoya's link above, what Monroe is struggling with is 2-pt jumpers, and here the official scorer is correctly noting that quite a few of his "layup" attempts are just a bit too far outside to be considered a layup. Those are the shots he has trouble with.
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